Decision 2008

Everything that doesn't fit anywhere else!

Postby DemoDick » May 17th, 2010, 7:00 pm

Hang on a second here...

Hypothetically speaking, if I were to support the ideas espoused by Thomas Sowell, Clarence Thomas, Frederick Douglass, and/or Condoleeza Rice, it's because I identify with their respective political ideologies. But if I criticize a half-black Democrat President, it's because I'm a racist.

Now ask yourself if you would level that charge at me if I were black.

So which one of us harbors prejudice again?

The psychological definition for this phenomenon is called projection.

Now, as to entitlements, this is very simple. I'll get right down to the principle elements of this whole tangle. Your material wealth belongs to you, and no one else. As long as you did not obtain that money by force or under false pretenses, in ethical terms, NO ONE is entitled to take it from you, especially by force or threat of same. If you put a gun to someone's head, or threaten to lock them up in a cage unless they give their property to you it's called ROBBERY, and it's not only morally reprehensible, it's a felony in every state. Of course, when the GOVERNMENT does the exact same thing, it's called "taxation", and it's a GOOD thing, because of course this forceful theft benefits society (especially those who vote for and contribute to legislators who continue this cycle, including corporations). If you even dare to think otherwise, you are morally defective (probably a greedy capitalist) and in need of political re-education.

The taking of property without the consent and knowledge of the rightful owner is theft. The forceful taking of property without consent is robbery. There is simply no arguing this.

Demo Dick
"My first priority will be to reinstate the assault weapons ban PERMANENTLY as soon as I take office...I intend to work with Congress on a national no carry law, 1 gun a month purchase limits, and bans on all semi-automatic guns."-Barack Obama
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Postby amazincc » May 17th, 2010, 7:33 pm

*Sigh*

The majority seems to be under the impression that welfare recipients are responsible for most of the problems in this country? Because they feel "entitled" to government assistance, and don't want to work?
Up until about a year or so ago I've always lived in low-income neighborhoods, and I've known my fair share of welfare families... The vast majority hated to have to rely on hand-outs, but they didn't have a choice if they wanted to house, feed and clothe their children - and the single most important factor for "staying" on welfare was definitely the free medical care that covered their kids.
I agree that being on welfare shouldn't be ones goal in life, but in reality a low-income family is NOT better off even IF both parents work at a minimum wage job... they might make a tiny little bit more money, but that immediately gets sucked up by child care costs, rising rent, bus fare or gas money (to get to the job in the first place), doctor bills (since most low-paying jobs don't offer affordable health care)... and the smallest "emergency" can turn into a real-life catastrophe in a matter of days. Your child gets sick - you need to take a couple of days off - your paycheck doesn't cover the bills that week... THAT is the reality.
Most of you are probably fortunate enough to have never had to experience that, and I myself had a job that offered reasonable health insurance for our families... but, for years, we (my kids and I) lived from one paycheck to the next and I worked my ASS off doing it. I'm not kidding... I started off making $3.35 an hour (in 1984), and by the end of a 50-hour week my check left us w/about $30.00 for groceries, if that - for FOUR people. I never went on welfare, but - by God - I "get it"... I understand why good citizens trade in their dignity for the guarantee of a government hand-out and health insurance for their families.
I like the idea of a universal health insurance that covers everyone... it has worked w/great success in european countries for decades.
Yes, there are people who take advantage of the system and know how to get around it... but that is as old as humanity itself. In the meantime there are countless families out there who jump through hoops each months to make ends meet ON welfare because the alternative (working) is even less "attractive" than their already crappy lives on a government check. No-one in their right mind WANTS to live that way, least of all some of the families I have known. However... once you get a job and toilet paper becomes a "luxury" - wth would you even want to make the effort?
I'm tired of everyone blaming "welfare people"... unless you have walked a mile in their shoes you have NO idea what their lives are like.

As for the free cell phone... they give you 200 free minutes a month (3 hours and 20 minutes for 30 days, to be exact), and it can be a life saving device for Seniors who live alone, or for families who can't afford a landline... and, yes, those people actually do exist among us. It's hardly a luxury to be able to call 911 in an emergency.
I've seen the commercial, and to say that it's misleading and stupid is putting it mildly... 6.66666667 minutes a day of free phone/airtime is hardly a drugdealers' wet dream.

Okay... done ranting for now. :rolleyes2:
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Postby DemoDick » May 17th, 2010, 8:02 pm

amazincc wrote:*Sigh*

The majority seems to be under the impression that welfare recipients are responsible for most of the problems in this country? Because they feel "entitled" to government assistance, and don't want to work?


No, the majority is fed up with an unresponsive government that ignores the people it is supposed to serve.

Up until about a year or so ago I've always lived in low-income neighborhoods, and I've known my fair share of welfare families... The vast majority hated to have to rely on hand-outs, but they didn't have a choice if they wanted to house, feed and clothe their children - and the single most important factor for "staying" on welfare was definitely the free medical care that covered their kids.


There is no such thing as "free" medical care. Someone is paying for it. The question is who and are they doing it willingly?

I agree that being on welfare shouldn't be ones goal in life, but in reality a low-income family is NOT better off even IF both parents work at a minimum wage job... they might make a tiny little bit more money, but that immediately gets sucked up by child care costs, rising rent, bus fare or gas money (to get to the job in the first place), doctor bills (since most low-paying jobs don't offer affordable health care)... and the smallest "emergency" can turn into a real-life catastrophe in a matter of days. Your child gets sick - you need to take a couple of days off - your paycheck doesn't cover the bills that week... THAT is the reality.
Most of you are probably fortunate enough to have never had to experience that, and I myself had a job that offered reasonable health insurance for our families... but, for years, we (my kids and I) lived from one paycheck to the next and I worked my ASS off doing it. I'm not kidding... I started off making $3.35 an hour (in 1984), and by the end of a 50-hour week my check left us w/about $30.00 for groceries, if that - for FOUR people. I never went on welfare, but - by God - I "get it"... I understand why good citizens trade in their dignity for the guarantee of a government hand-out and health insurance for their families.


That handout was taken, by force, from someone else. That is reprehensible.

I like the idea of a universal health insurance that covers everyone... it has worked w/great success in european countries for decades.


If we accept that it is acceptable for government to force one citizen to pay for the health care of another by virtue of having more wealth, we must also accept that it is acceptable for government to force the wealthier person to feed and house the poor, as he will surely starve before he ever needs to go to a hospital. Quite frankly, I don't care if socialized medicine, or any kind of social welfare "works". All are based on an unethical premise.

Yes, there are people who take advantage of the system and know how to get around it... but that is as old as humanity itself. In the meantime there are countless families out there who jump through hoops each months to make ends meet ON welfare because the alternative (working) is even less "attractive" than their already crappy lives on a government check. No-one in their right mind WANTS to live that way, least of all some of the families I have known. However... once you get a job and toilet paper becomes a "luxury" - wth would you even want to make the effort?


Funny you mention toilet paper, because when hyperinflation hits, that's what our currency is going to be used for. On a global scale.

I'm tired of everyone blaming "welfare people"... unless you have walked a mile in their shoes you have NO idea what their lives are like.


One man's starvation does not justify the theft of property from another.

As for the free cell phone... they give you 200 free minutes a month (3 hours and 20 minutes for 30 days, to be exact), and it can be a life saving device for Seniors who live alone, or for families who can't afford a landline... and, yes, those people actually do exist among us. It's hardly a luxury to be able to call 911 in an emergency.


This whole cell phone thing is a non-issue. Every cell phone can call 911. Every land line has this capability as well, even if it has no service. And again, there is no "free" 200 minutes. Someone is paying for it. But in the case of the phone service that Michelle mentioned, it is actually not supported by taxpayer dollars. It is paid for by cell phone companies who charge their paying customers a small fee to provide this courtesy, and customers have access to this information in their contracts. No government coercion is involved.

The issue is not that some people are poor and need help. The issue is that government, in the name of helping the poor, is forcibly taking the property of the "priveleged" and handing it out to the poor, downtrodden souls who "need" it. Like General Motors and Chrysler.

I am all for charity. But charity, by definition, is given without coercion.
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Postby mnp13 » May 17th, 2010, 8:11 pm

amazincc wrote:I like the idea of a universal health insurance that covers everyone... it has worked w/great success in european countries for decades.

...

they might make a tiny little bit more money, but that immediately gets sucked up by child care costs, rising rent, bus fare or gas money (to get to the job in the first place), doctor bills (since most low-paying jobs don't offer affordable health care)... and the smallest "emergency" can turn into a real-life catastrophe in a matter of days.

I agree 100%.

It is messed up that two people can work their asses off at "minimum wage" "full time" jobs and not be able to afford decent child care and health care. My friends decided that she would stay home because her $10 an hour, 40 an hour week job would only bring home about $50 after they paid for Samantha's day care... so why shouldn't she raise her baby herself???

There are a million problems at the source of this mess, and one of them is the entitlement culture that we live in. Look at the protests all over California right now - illegal immigrants, who think they have a right to social services? Driver's licenses? No. Sorry. You have the "right" to go home and come back the legal way or not at all.

As for the free cell phone... they give you 200 free minutes a month (3 hours and 20 minutes for 30 days, to be exact), and it can be a life saving device for Seniors who live alone, or for families who can't afford a landline... and, yes, those people actually do exist among us. It's hardly a luxury to be able to call 911 in an emergency.
I've seen the commercial, and to say that it's misleading and stupid is putting it mildly... 6.66666667 minutes a day of free phone/airtime is hardly a drugdealers' wet dream.

Any cell phone with power can dial 911, it doesn't have to have a service plan. You'll just have to trust me on this one, because if you test it, you'll be placing a 911 call and you may have the cops show up at your location. (I work for a phone company.)

And for the record, I DO agree with most social services. Food stamps, for example, are a great thing. However, debit cards, so that people can pretend that they aren't on public assistance are on that "piss me off" list.

And I also think that a most of the people who are on social services are trapped by the cycle of them. I do not think that the majority are dishonest, but I do think that the rules have all been crated because of the liars and cheats - and because of that a lot of honest people get stuck.

Until there is HUGE reform to the system, it's going to stay broken.
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Postby DemoDick » May 17th, 2010, 8:13 pm

One more thing Christine, if anyone looks at the familes you described and doesn't feel an immediate impulse to reach into their pocket to help them, there is something very wrong with them. I have never seen anyone arguing that the people you describe are the problem. The criticisms are leveled at the legislators, looters, and moochers who dime the system for everything it's worth.

Demo Dick
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"When in doubt, whip it out."-Nuge
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Postby hugapitbull » May 17th, 2010, 8:26 pm

DemoDick wrote:One more thing Christine, if anyone looks at the familes you described and doesn't feel an immediate impulse to reach into their pocket to help them, there is something very wrong with them. I have never seen anyone arguing that the people you describe are the problem. The criticisms are leveled at the legislators, looters, and moochers who dime the system for everything it's worth.

Demo Dick


This I totally agree with. There is not a person on this forum so hardened that they wouldn't help someone in need. I certainly never meant to imply I was against 'assistance' programs. There are most definitely those who need and deserve a helping hand until they can get back on their feet. What I and others do have an issue with is a government that has made it beneficial for people to take advantage of the 'assistance' and instead use it as subsistence. That is when it is just plain wrong, and it isn't the fault of the receiver, it is the system that makes them eligible. This is the point where assistance becomes abuse, and having worked all my adult life, I become a bit irate that this is allowed to happen.
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Postby amazincc » May 17th, 2010, 8:28 pm

Well, Demo... I agree w/you, for the most part... but it seems to me that the majority of the people who complain the loudest about the current state of affairs now are also the exact same people who voted this government into existence in the first place.
It's a known fact that voter turnout is extremely low in poor neighborhoods, and always has been. Poor people don't elect most officials - middle and upperclass does.
So, aren't you guys (as in general you) basically pissed off at all those people you have helped enable all these years?
Kind of like buying booze for an alcoholic, and then blaming him/her for being a drunk, for example...??? :|

Even at my "poorest" I still had a shitload of stuff deducted from my paycheck, simply because I worked... so, yeah, I'm feeling you there. :bs:
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Postby DemoDick » May 17th, 2010, 8:43 pm

amazincc wrote:Well, Demo... I agree w/you, for the most part... but it seems to me that the majority of the people who complain the loudest about the current state of affairs now are also the exact same people who voted this government into existence in the first place.


Essentially correct. Remember though, that the voters have for years been given a choice between Republicans and Democrats, neither of which seem to really understand or respect the U.S. Constitution. When you consistently give people a choice between horse crap and bull crap they're eventually going to get irate.

It's a known fact that voter turnout is extremely low in poor neighborhoods, and always has been. Poor people don't elect most officials - middle and upperclass does.


See above for what the middle and upper class have been forced to choose from.

So, aren't you guys (as in general you) basically pissed off at all those people you have helped enable all these years?
Kind of like buying booze for an alcoholic, and then blaming him/her for being a drunk, for example...??? :|


No, I don't think anyone is pissed off at poor people who have found themselves in especially dire straits. I'd bet that most of the Tea Party folks will be the first ones to turn their pockets out to help people who need it. They just hate that they are forced into it and that they have essentially no say in where that money goes (GM and Chrysler for example).

Even at my "poorest" I still had a shitload of stuff deducted from my paycheck, simply because I worked... so, yeah, I'm feeling you there. :bs:


That was YOUR money. And it was stolen from you.
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Postby amazincc » May 17th, 2010, 8:43 pm

DemoDick wrote:One more thing Christine, if anyone looks at the familes you described and doesn't feel an immediate impulse to reach into their pocket to help them, there is something very wrong with them. I have never seen anyone arguing that the people you describe are the problem. The criticisms are leveled at the legislators, looters, and moochers who dime the system for everything it's worth.

Demo Dick


It has been my experience for most of my life that a "poor" person is much more willing to lend a helping hand than a person who is considerably "better off" (wealthy).
Yes, some of us would give the shirt off our backs to others... but the ones w/many, many shirts to spare seem to lack empathy and compassion, for the most part.
I have never understood that, but maybe I'm one of those bleedin'-heart liberals who thinks that, in the end, I can't take my shirts w/me... they might as well do some good while I'm alive. :wink: lol
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Postby DemoDick » May 17th, 2010, 8:48 pm

amazincc wrote:It has been my experience for most of my life that a "poor" person is much more willing to lend a helping hand than a person who is considerably "better off" (wealthy).
Yes, some of us would give the shirt off our backs to others... but the ones w/many, many shirts to spare seem to lack empathy and compassion, for the most part.
I have never understood that, but maybe I'm one of those bleedin'-heart liberals who thinks that, in the end, I can't take my shirts w/me... they might as well do some good while I'm alive. :wink: lol


If you choose to give them, then that is great. But there is no ethical way to force you into doing it.

Take a look at this, for starters.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WJBeuR0x ... re=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hrg1CArk ... re=related

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Postby amazincc » May 17th, 2010, 8:48 pm

DemoDick wrote:
That was YOUR money. And it was stolen from you.


I want you to go and arrest each one of those bastids for theft of property, inflicting intentional weekly anxiety and worry, and f**king me for years without my permission. GO, Demo!!! :dance: :)
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Postby hugapitbull » May 17th, 2010, 8:57 pm

amazincc wrote:I want you to go and arrest each one of those bastids for theft of property, inflicting intentional weekly anxiety and worry, and f**king me for years without my permission. GO, Demo!!! :dance: :)


,,,better take all your friends with you if you're going to arrest all the senate & house members :neener: :|
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Postby DemoDick » May 17th, 2010, 8:59 pm

amazincc wrote:I want you to go and arrest each one of those bastids for theft of property, inflicting intentional weekly anxiety and worry, and f**king me for years without my permission. GO, Demo!!! :dance: :)


That is, oddly enough, the correct and ethical role of a Law Enforcement Officer in a just society: to prevent citizens from killing, harming, or stealing from each other. I'm as pissed as you that I am currently prevented from doing my job. I hold out hope that someday I will be able to.
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Postby amazincc » May 17th, 2010, 9:35 pm

DemoDick wrote:
If you choose to give them, then that is great. But there is no ethical way to [i]force you into doing it.[/i]

Agreed.


I am a HUGE fan of Thomas Sowell. That man makes sense to me in a way very few people do.

The problem still is that the "many, many of us" elect "the few" who lead us straight into hell and damnation... and we let them. In the end it's all about taking personal responsibility for ones choices, especially when it comes to who's running the show. We (as in general we) put someone in charge every four years, and for some odd reason, we expect a miracle each and every time.

'If you're seeing a lot of horseshit, there has to be a pony in the vicinity.' :|
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Postby airwalk » May 18th, 2010, 1:05 am

Christine I absolutely feel that shelter, food and basic health care should be essentials provided for those that are unable to provide for themselves..please note I said unable..not unwilling. I also said that entitlemet programs are clearly manipulated to keep people in a second class citizen situation. They don't do it, those that wish to be in absolute control do. How better to control an entire class of citizens than by controlling their very lives, food, roof over their head, childrens health...

I do feel our entitlement programs have gotten completely out of hand. As Michelle and Demo pointed out...any cell phone with battery power will dial 911. So the 200 minutes...it is a luxury whether we like to admit it or not.
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Postby airwalk » May 18th, 2010, 1:08 am

oh and btw..I know what it is to be well and truly poor! Been there done that...struggled with only part time work, a child and a bastid of an ex. I worked two jobs and pinched every penny. I didn't have a cell phone, and Friday night was koolaid and popcorn with whatever family movie was on the regular channels..no cable. Pancakes at the end of the month when the money ran out because they are cheap and filling. Rob Peter to pay Paul and hope they leave the electricity on until next month when you pay it and not the phone.

The only bill that got paid consistently..the rent cause I had a child and needed a roof.

I picked up popcans, babysat and did whatever I could find that would pay. I've shovelled horse stalls, sorted garbage and recyclables...and got by.

So no I have no issue with being poor...been there...done that! I have issue with the expectation that someone else owes the poor something more than they are prepared to work for.
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Postby amazincc » May 18th, 2010, 3:15 am

That was kind of my point, Diana... the majority of the poor ARE prepared to work for a living, but it needs to be a living that sustains their families and provides some type of security for the future.
I had to make the same choices you did regarding what bills to pay first/when (always the rent... yup! :) ), we walked everywhere, and the rare occasion when we did take a bus was an "event".
No cable, no cell phones, and when my kids were really small we "went out to eat" at the Salvation Army soup kitchen every other Monday night. Fun times. lol
I worked 50+ hours at a job I came to despise, but it was a job... and somehow we managed to always keep a roof over our heads, and food on the table. When my kids were old enough to want an mp3 player, or whatever the toy of the moment was... they worked for it. Paper routes, baby sitting, part-time jobs after school when they were old enough, whatever it took.
The only thing I really hated about being one of the working poor was the constant uncertainty of - literally - living from paycheck to paycheck every week. Or losing my health insurance.
It was a scary time for me, seriously... you can probably understand exactly what I mean.
It also never occured to me to apply for welfare, even though I'm pretty sure there were plenty of weeks when I worked for less income than your average welfare recipient was given by the state.
So, I totally get the reluctance of people to throw caution to the wind and get off welfare. Especially now, in this economy. Self-respect and dignity are poor incentives compared to government-subsidized housing, free medical care, and at least two square meals a day for your kids.
I'm not saying that I like it, or even condone it... but I understand it.
There is a general hopelessness and defeatist attitude present in most poor communities that suits the government just fine... now imagine if all those people stood up and demanded better for themselves, instead of letting themselves be placated by the occasional obscure "entitlement program" - John Q. Politician would be fucked three ways from Sunday.
IF the poor wake up and start thinking for themselves, and IF they realize that those who elect our officials are partly to blame for everything that's broken in the system... watch out for a shitstorm of epic proportions. I wish I would live long enough to see it, but I don't think it will happen in my lifetime.

"Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day. Teach a man to fish and he will eat for a lifetime." Great theory, but unrealistic, to put it mildly... because: "Teach a man to fish and take most of his catch away at the end of each day - why would he even want to bother learning in the first place?"
That's my take on welfare and the people who receive it - truly needy/deserving, or not.
I can't/don't blame them, for the most part.

I also have a soft spot for the underdogs in this world... be they Pit Bulls or people living on my taxes.

I should NEVER get into a political discussion with anyone either. Zipping the lip for now. lol
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Postby airwalk » May 18th, 2010, 12:11 pm

Actually Christine you and I agree on virtually everything. , and yep I do understand. Our big night out was once a month at McDonalds for a value meal and I scrimped and saved to do that.

I completely believe that entitlement programs are the exact problem. People get in and over time, are beaten to the point they can no longer get out, they can't see a way...and that is exactly what those that keep reinventing those programs want. If you are beholding to someone or something, you don't stand up to them...if you see no avenue, you don't abandon the only route you can see.

See my comments are not about the poor PEOPLE...they are about the programs that keep them there. They are not a judgement about the average person ... they are judgement on those that maintain and perpetuate those programs. I am appalled by those that want to take from me and give to everyone else as a manner of "fixing" poverty. It doesn't work, it never has.
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Postby Pit♥bull » May 18th, 2010, 12:37 pm

airwalk wrote:See my comments are not about the poor PEOPLE...they are about the programs that keep them there. They are not a judgement about the average person ... they are judgement on those that maintain and perpetuate those programs. I am appalled by those that want to take from me and give to everyone else as a manner of "fixing" poverty. It doesn't work, it never has.
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Postby cheekymunkee » May 18th, 2010, 8:55 pm

I want a free cell phone
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