How do I teach "stand"?

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Postby pitbullmamaliz » April 18th, 2010, 7:02 pm

Fortunately I won't need it any time soon because it's not until level 2 of competition and we haven't even done level 1, but Ginger wanted us all to work on it. Unfortunately (fortunately?) I have taught Inara such an automatic sit that this seems nearly impossible. If I stop moving and have treats, she sits. If I try to lure her into a stand by putting a treat in front of her nose and moving it forward, she lifts her butt just enough to scoot forward a bit then immediately sits again. If I try to use my foot to nudge her hiney up out of a sit, she shuffles around and sits again. If I put my hand under her belly to hold her hind end up, she lifts a back leg up out of the way (like she's letting a dog sniff her). If by some miracle I get her into a stand and click, she immediately sits before I can feed her a treat. I finally quit tonight because I was getting frustrated and it wasn't her fault. Ideas?
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Postby Hundilein » April 18th, 2010, 7:21 pm

With a dog with an auto-sit like that, I often start wandering around without making eye contact to see if I can entice her to stand up, then click for standing and throw the treat on the floor so even if she sits when she hears the click, she has to get up to get the treat. That gives me the opportunity to click before she sits down again. I usually keep throwing the treats on the floor for at least a few clicks until I see her start to hesitate a bit rather than just immediately sitting again. Most dogs I've done this with figure out pretty quickly that I don't want sit, though if your rate of reinforcement gets too low, they will often try sitting again. Usually when I do this, I'm shaping either a bow or backing up, so my first step is to get the dog to stop sitting so I can work on the next steps. When I did stand with Renee, I lured it.
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Postby mnp13 » April 18th, 2010, 7:34 pm

Yeah, it sucks when we teach them to stop thinking....

I taught it to Riggs with a loop of leash around his belly. He'd sit, and I lifted his back end up to stand him up, and then treated. Or we took a few steps, and when we stopped, I said "stand," while keeping him standing and treated.

What competition are you talking about?
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Postby pitbullmamaliz » April 18th, 2010, 7:49 pm

Thanks girls, I'll try both of those methods and see what works. And yes, I'm frustrated for teaching her such a solid behavior! lol

My new competition goal is to compete in C-Wags (Canine Work and Games). http://www.c-wags.org/ It's a regional thing and my instructor was one of the creators of it. We're going to be competing in May in the level 1 Obedience (eek!). It's nice because you can treat your dog after each exercise, and talk to them and praise them (as long as you're not repeating commands).

And then of course there's the DSO in August... :heartbeat:
"Remember - every time your dog gets somewhere on a tight leash *a fairy dies and it's all your fault.* Think of the fairies." http://www.positivepetzine.com"

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Postby TheRedQueen » April 18th, 2010, 7:53 pm

If she understands the click truly, then the click for the behavior should be enough...I'd click for the stand, feed her where she is...no matter the position. Then I'd hold out for longer and longer stands. I lured Ripley, but from Xander on, we've shaped the stand.

That's what I've done with my guys...
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Postby maberi » April 18th, 2010, 10:28 pm

I taught Earl to stand by capturing but didn't like the step forward. I taught the stand to Kayden via a friend's advice who is very competition oriented and really liked how it came out. I think there really are a lot of ways to teach it but this is the way I was taught

The following is from a friend

Dog is sitting in heel position.
You hold collar with left hand.
With right hand you bait dog just out in front of their nose, while simultaneously putting a tiny bit of back pressure on the collar..........you're looking to engage some opposition as they try to get the bait.
for some dogs, this alone causes them to pop up into the stand...for others, they need additional info, which would be your left shin touching their flank.
MARK (yes, click, etc) the moment they are in the stand and reward for several seconds as they remain there....always add the release word to indicate they are done with that posture.

repeat repeat repeat.

You will get to the point where you are fading certain elements of the "aids" you've been giving. but don't be in a big hurry to do so...assess their understanding as you go and be realistic about it.

You can also practice this (once they are clear on the cue and the actual behavior) on an elevated surface. This will help him resist the urge to step forward as that would cause him to fall off. You can also go to the stairs and use the landing at the first step going down......if he walks forward, he'll fall off onto the step. You can also put an object in front of his feet,....if he moves forward and touches the bar or the piece of wood or whatever you give him information that that is NOT correct and you go again. basically, these are all just ideas of how to clarify the job for the dog.
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Postby TheRedQueen » April 18th, 2010, 10:56 pm

Have you thought about teaching her the "stand" on a raised surface? Stacking blocks?
http://whippetwatch.com/saesi/neatfeet.html

Honestly, my dogs have default behaviors (sit and down)...but I don't let it stop me from getting behaviors...and your Inara's auto sit doesn't keep you from getting *other* behaviors from her...so try and keep your brain from getting wrapped around the fact that she keeps sitting. I'm not saying this well, because I'm tired...lol.
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Postby pitbullmamaliz » April 19th, 2010, 7:11 am

HA! I cannot imagine how frustrated both she and I would get with stacking blocks. She's not a graceful dog and would probably injure herself. :giggle:

I'm definitely not letting this stop me from teaching her stand, I was just looking for some ideas that maybe I hadn't thought of. I will probably have to start with marking the slightest butt lift and then shape it into a stand.

Matt, one of Inara's stay exercises when she was younger was to have me pull gently on her leash while she was sitting and she couldn't get up, so I'm not sure if her opposition reflex would engage in a convenient manner. lol

I will get a stand. Oh yes, it will be mine!
"Remember - every time your dog gets somewhere on a tight leash *a fairy dies and it's all your fault.* Think of the fairies." http://www.positivepetzine.com"

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Postby maberi » April 19th, 2010, 8:30 am

pitbullmamaliz wrote:Matt, one of Inara's stay exercises when she was younger was to have me pull gently on her leash while she was sitting and she couldn't get up, so I'm not sure if her opposition reflex would engage in a convenient manner. lol


Usually that stay exercise is done with the handler pulling from the front so that the dog's opposition reflex has them pulling back. The one I described is actually the exact opposite so there shouldn't be any confusion. Not to mention you are actually baiting the dog in the exercise so they naturally pull towards the reward and by holding the collar you kick in their rear when they try to pull forward.
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Postby fenella » April 26th, 2010, 6:01 pm

Murphy has an auto-sit, but I can still get a stand on command from him.
We sort of lured it. I held the treat in my closed hand in front of him. I'd move it back and he'd lift his butt up. Click for butt lifting. We worked up to it. Eventually, I wouldn't open my hand until he was fully standing. It was frustrating for him at first, which worked in my favor. He'd sit...wait...try a down...wait...cover his eyes...wait. Eventually, he'd get pissed and stand up, like he was going to walk away. I clicked the second he stood up, and he was right back with me.
Even if she sits back down before you feed the treat, you are still CLICKING when she is standing, which is the point. I'd also toss the treat out of her reach so that she HAS to stand up to get it:

If she's sitting before you can give her the treat, it would look like this:
She is sitting, upward movement toward a stand (through luring or shaping) or wait until she fully stand (depending on where you are with training)...Click, toss the treat, click when standing, treat, click when standing, treat. Keep clicking and treating as long as she stays up. Since you are just beginning to work on it, it doesn't matter so much that she is getting INTO the stand position. You want to reinforce that STANDING UP is what's getting her the treat. Eventually, you can get to the point where you are clicking for the actual act of standing.
If you want to "reset" her, I'd move to another position and see if she stays up. If she sits, just wait her out, then click-treat like crazy when she stands up...and keep going while she's up.
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