Bad Day Yesterday--Dar Attacked Dog

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Postby ArtGypsy » April 14th, 2010, 11:50 am

:sad2: :shock: :sad2: :shock: :sad2: :shock:

Okay, first let me say:: we have all but built a damn COMPOUND facility around our yard to make sure Dar doesn't jump the fence; including two different spots for 'tie outs'.
We have this tall-assed-chain link kennel door on our FRONT PORCH that opens onto the sidewalk. *our house is set up weird. It's old. the 'back yard is actually the side yard, and with it being a corner lot, there's a lot of street access*

On the kennel gate, there's this "C' shaped things that lifts up and down, fitting around a pole.
*I can't post pics now. I'm at the hospital while Gerry has all her lady parts removed to get rid of the cancer*

TWICE yesterday Dar BODY slammed the gate and went RUNNING. For you who may remember, There's nothing that Dar loves MORE than Running. No food, No Cat, No Attention, No 'bye bye', nothing.
It takes us FOREVER of walking the neighborhood, wearing him out, 'herding him back to the house ----
*he hasn't been out all winter.

The second time yesterday morning, kelcie and I were headed out the door, which is usually no big deal. Dar was standing there in the dining room, by the door. when the cat went by me, I accidentally stepped on his tail.
Cat Screeched, ran out the door, Dar crashed past the two of us, and HIT that gate and popped it open.

I almost cried . :cry:
The neighbor across the street has two dogs *one half pit, very well behaved with not one iota of training; :bs:
and We were all trying to catch Dar. He's jumping around Abby and Annie with one keen eye on anyone who tried to get close enough to grab his collar.

Along comes a SUV with this youngish girl who rolls down the window to tell us she has lost HER DOG and have we seen him. It's obvious to her I'm trying to grab Dar, *while neighbors kinda stand around and wait. They're patient with this process. it happened a lot before we got the compound put up.
Young girl in car decides to help by getting her dog out to 'help".....*distract Dar long enough so we can grab collar and I can snap on leash*

sure enough, Dar was thrilled to see little dog *some kind of herding doggiemixed breed* and as Dar is happily romping with young dog, the young woman snags his collar!! horray!!

but the D ring was on the other side, so both dogs are playing and romping and in a split second after I snap on the leash, Dar FLIPS OUT and Grabs Little Furry doggie in his mouth!!!!
:o

Doggie screams, woman screams and cries and I'm yelling Dar's name.....CHAOS.
Total Chaos.
Kelcie hears the screaming from across the street, the woman holding her dog, tears streaming and Kelcie BURSTS into panicked crying and as I"m kneeling down beside Dar, trying my best to apologize, Kelcie grabs me, wrapping both her arms around me crying " Oh my god Momma, Oh my God...you can't lose Dar, you can't lose Him Too":>>.

I"m trying to hold Dar down, the woman still clutching her Dog, saying 'this has got to be reported'; as she runs to her car, Kelcie continues to WEEP......I keep saying "it's okay Sweetie, calm down--it's okay, we're not gonna lose Dar, it's okay>
Kelcie wails, "" I don't care about Dar, I care about You. You can't lose him Too">>>

The woman comes back from her car, and I"m rushing out apologies, the name of my vet, telling her to take her dog, send me the bill, etc....woman kneels down beside Dar and thank god he thumps his tail and let's her pet him.....

Some NOSY ASSED WOMAN from across the street comes running to the owners of the house **who by this time have unhooked their dogs from the tie outs and taken them in the house with them."" this woman is shouting"" I saw the whole thing, I saw the whole thing...... :cuss: BITCH.

We got Dar Home, Me;leading Dar and kelcie and i walking with our arms around each other, weary, frightened and now terrified she's going to report Dar.

I took kelcie to school, drove around and helped that woman look for her dog.**who later, we found out, was hiding under the deck---black as night, sleeping. **

I called my vet and asked about the dog, and Claudia said" that was your dog? Dar did that"??
She said there were a couple little puncture wounds and a little antibiotic would be fine. She told me the total of the bill and I drove the check to the young woman's house that night when I got back from a long day in Lincoln.

The young woman said to tell my daughter its' going to be okay, and she wasn't going to report Dar.


I can't trust him you guys. :cry2: :cry2: :cry2:
It happened with Macy *now we crate*, it happened at Puppy Day Care *we don't board him anymore* and now it happened with a young dog that he played with in one second and attacked a second later.

Now I won't even walk him. The town is FULL of people walking their own dogs, and dogs zipping off porches from time to time. Dar does pretty well with me, but there was one time late last fall while we were walking in the park he all but drug me down, going after a strange cat. At home, I can't make him mind me, reward him, etc. for not yanking me or if I'm trying to get him down out of the window barking. *not easy, but I can do it*.,

But in public, with another animal around, I"m screwed.

Again...............I feel like I've failed my dog.

Everything he knows or wants to do is OUT THE DOOR when he's focused on that other animal. :cry: :cry: :cry:
“Hope has two beautiful daughters: their names are Anger and Courage.
Anger that things are the way they are.
Courage to make them the way they ought to be.”----Augustine
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Postby ArtGypsy » April 14th, 2010, 11:59 am

What did I do wrong when I raised him????

:(

is it just 'him'.??

aren't some dogs just doggie friendly and some aren't?
what makes him 'switch" in a nano second??
“Hope has two beautiful daughters: their names are Anger and Courage.
Anger that things are the way they are.
Courage to make them the way they ought to be.”----Augustine
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Postby mnp13 » April 14th, 2010, 12:05 pm

Did he kill the dog? No. So he didn't want to. That's the first thing.

Riggs grabbed a JRT a few years ago at the training building. The poor little thing was just walking out the door minding her own business and he grabbed her coat from behind. Scared the hell out of her, me, her owner and everyone else... he could have killed her in one second if he wanted to.

Now, of course, there are other things to deal with here, but the other dog is ok. Start there.
Michelle

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Postby Suzi » April 14th, 2010, 12:08 pm

*sigh* I feel for you... The thoughts that must be swimming around in your head right now, and during the whole incident must be overwhelming.......

I am responding "off the cuff" here,,,as I don't know the whole picture (how old your children are,,,what your schedule is). Is it possible to start into an obedience program?

Deep Breath...Where there's a will there's a way. Don't be hard on yourself (I know easier said than done),,,,with the strength you posess,,,I feel confident that your situation can be addressed, and resolved in time....Hang in there!
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Postby mnp13 » April 14th, 2010, 12:10 pm

ArtGypsy wrote:What did I do wrong when I raised him????

:(

is it just 'him'.??

aren't some dogs just doggie friendly and some aren't?
what makes him 'switch" in a nano second??

JODY
STOP IT.

You own a PIT BULL, dog aggression is part of the breed. Not showing outward signs of dog aggression is also often part of the breed. You spent days at my house last year, and you watched Riggs interact with other dogs... he can be sweet as pie one moment and then a holy terror the next... you saw that the first time you met him. It's no different with Dar (though I'm pretty sure all of Dar's screw's are tight :wink: )
Michelle

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Postby ArtGypsy » April 14th, 2010, 12:14 pm

mnp13 wrote:
ArtGypsy wrote:What did I do wrong when I raised him????

:(

is it just 'him'.??

aren't some dogs just doggie friendly and some aren't?
what makes him 'switch" in a nano second??

JODY
STOP IT. **sniff sniff..OKay...*kicking dirt with toe of shoe** I know.....(((((((sigh))))But I have that culturally ingrained 'human-mommy-guilt" that assumes that anything that goes wrong HAS to be 'traced back' to something we did or didn't do.Thanks Michelle. I needed that. **wiping face w/ back of hand" :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

You own a PIT BULL, dog aggression is part of the breed. Not showing outward signs of dog aggression is also often part of the breed. You spent days at my house last year, and you watched Riggs interact with other dogs... he can be sweet as pie one moment and then a holy terror the next... you saw that the first time you met him. It's no different with Dar (though I'm pretty sure all of Dar's screw's are tight :wink: )
“Hope has two beautiful daughters: their names are Anger and Courage.
Anger that things are the way they are.
Courage to make them the way they ought to be.”----Augustine
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Postby maberi » April 14th, 2010, 12:21 pm

What Michelle said

Don't beat yourself up, mistakes happen and just be thankful this one didn't turn out worse. The one thing I would take away from this is that you should try to structure some recall training with Dar so that if he ever gets out again, it isn't the most exciting thing in the world.


mnp13 wrote:
ArtGypsy wrote:What did I do wrong when I raised him????

:(

is it just 'him'.??

aren't some dogs just doggie friendly and some aren't?
what makes him 'switch" in a nano second??

JODY
STOP IT.

You own a PIT BULL, dog aggression is part of the breed. Not showing outward signs of dog aggression is also often part of the breed. You spent days at my house last year, and you watched Riggs interact with other dogs... he can be sweet as pie one moment and then a holy terror the next... you saw that the first time you met him. It's no different with Dar (though I'm pretty sure all of Dar's screw's are tight :wink: )
Look beyond what your own eyes see
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Postby tiva » April 14th, 2010, 12:24 pm

Sorry about the experience--it sounds overwhelming. As Michelle said, start with the fact that he didn't kill the other dog.

Now that you've got your breath, do two things:
1. fix the gate. Use a lock or a locking mechanism. It doesn't count as a fenced yard if he can run right out of it. There are dozens of safe, locking latches on the market, so get yourself over to the hardware store as soon as you can calm down and have a nice talk with the cute guy on the floor. Then go find the old guy who actually knows something about latches!
2. rethink your management schemes, even when the gate is fixed. For example: if he's rushing the front door, put up a baby gate, or always use the back door.
3. for walks, or for letting him out in the yard, buy a well-fitting italian basket muzzle (about $10 to $15 at amazon) and train him to LOVE it. Then, when you walk him, you never ever again have to worry about him hurting another dog. You still need to be a responsible pet owner and protect him from other dogs, but you won't have to worry about him hurting another dog.
4. buy a few cans of sprayshield (the citronella spray) and always keep some easily accesible. Whenever you put the leash on your dog, carry the sprayshield AND treats. Sprayshield won't stop a dog who is determined to kill, but it will interrupt these tiffs before they really get going.
5. and educate yourself as much as possible about the signs of dog tension. Some dogs are very subtle, but with experience, you can learn to see those tiny signs: a stiff leg, a hard look, a bit of tension, a tense commisure (mouth shape).

Good luck! Many of us have been in your position--with a dog aggressive dog--and we've needed to learn how to double up on management, backups, and training.
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Postby ArtGypsy » April 14th, 2010, 12:39 pm

Well, One of the first things I need to do is take pictures for you guys of how the gate looks/is fitted on the front porch. It's kinda ''''''''''''odd'''''''''''' :|

But to me, the OBVIOUS step is to PREVENT the door from swinging OUTWARD AT ALL. :|

Right now it swings both ways., **don't say one word** :neener: :dance: :neener:


If we can keep it from EVER s winging outward, it doesn't matter HOW HARD the bronto-beast slams into it, it's going NOWHERE.

:nono:

I'm just so glad that little dog didn't wind up like Macy last year....with 24 stitches in her throat. :sad2:
But see, we kinda 'blamed' Macy for that altercation cause she 'DOES' have a screw or two loose--being half shar pei on top of being old and cranky, she really has NEVER been a very solid dog.

And Poor KELCIE.....
She teared up last night even talking about what happened. She said she was just 'sick' all day and couldn't get the sounds of all the screaming and dog fighting noises out of her mind......

She's just had so much to deal with lately......well, for A WHILE now....
“Hope has two beautiful daughters: their names are Anger and Courage.
Anger that things are the way they are.
Courage to make them the way they ought to be.”----Augustine
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Postby amazincc » April 14th, 2010, 1:57 pm

Gah... there must be something in the air, because Sepp is impossible lately (ever since he jumped the fence)... >( :nono:
I'll post about that later... but in Dars case *tight management* should be your first step, to prevent him from getting out and bolting again. Put a long drag leash on him if you have to for now, and keep it on him at all times, at least during the day.
Put a chain on the gate until you figure out how to *fix* it... (pics would help, since I don't quite "get" the set-up).
And I agree... IF Dar had wanted to seriously harm the other dog - he would have. He actually sounds a bit leash-reactive since he was fine/playing until the moment he was leashed... :|
Yes... your yard has to become the equivelant of Ft. Knox ASAP... nothing gets in, and nothing gets out.
AFTER that is done - then you can start working on obedience/behaviors. Baby steps, Grace... in the meantime - safety first!
Damned stubborn bullies. :wink: :hug3:
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Postby TheRedQueen » April 14th, 2010, 2:14 pm

Everyone's made great suggestions...I won't add anything except that YES, spring is in the air...and some of these guys at my house (not mentioning a particular long-backed, short-legged creature that was *alpha-rolling* a puppy at playdate yesterday) have been AWFUL lately. :rolleyes2: So don't worry about being a bad mom...we all have moments we wish we could just wish away.
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Postby PetieMarie22 » April 14th, 2010, 2:32 pm

TheRedQueen wrote:So don't worry about being a bad mom...we all have moments we wish we could just wish away.
I couldn't agree more!!

It wasn't too smart of the lady to take her dog our of the car to lure a dog she didn't know. Food? A toy maybe? But probably not your own dog. Glad she let it go in the end.
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Postby mnp13 » April 14th, 2010, 3:05 pm

You know, I really like self-corrections, and sometimes they can help in cases like this. Does he always charge the gate if he sees an opportunity? Can you almost depend on him doing it?

I'll definitely need to see a picture of the gate, but if it's just preventing it from swinging outward, just putting a stop on the other side will do it. :| you won't even need any new hard ware. A large bolt or two would actually do the job.

I know that I should already know this, but what is his training background? What collars/harnesses do you use with him?
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Postby airwalk » April 14th, 2010, 9:46 pm

Please remember the chaos, the yelling, the heightened anxiety levels of everyone involved also played into the situation. Grace, it is very hard...very, very hard...but you have to learn to take a deep breath and remain calm even when everyone around you is going bezerk. I know you have had a lot on your plate lately and Dar has felt all of that as well.

So he has been in a bit of a heightened anxiety level for a bit now, because you are, that is totally understandable. Don't kick yourself...crapola happens to everyone.

Good stuff here..but yep fix the gate and I see where Michelle is going..if he can be counted on to charge the gate..there is opportunity here.
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Postby ArtGypsy » April 14th, 2010, 9:46 pm

mnp13 wrote:You know, I really like self-corrections, and sometimes they can help in cases like this. Does he always charge the gate if he sees an opportunity? Can you almost depend on him doing it? Now that he's done it a couple times, I think YES.

I'll definitely need to see a picture of the gate, but if it's just preventing it from swinging outward, just putting a stop on the other side will do it. :| you won't even need any new hard ware. A large bolt or two would actually do the job.Gonna 'rig' as soon as Gerry is capable

I know that I should already know this, but what is his training background?I've been WAITING-FOR-ERIN TO COME!! :dance: :dance:

What collars/harnesses do you use with him?

Finally went to a prong collar.....you helped me reconcile my guilt over THAT too.... :oops: You told me the size and the brand that was best, and I bought it.

Used to use the gentle leader, but MAN that freaked him out...no matter HOW MUCH I tried to teach him to love it.
sometimes even now, he'll see the leash OR collar and he'll 'zip and dart' not wanting me to put it on him. But he loves going for the walk.... :|
“Hope has two beautiful daughters: their names are Anger and Courage.
Anger that things are the way they are.
Courage to make them the way they ought to be.”----Augustine
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Postby ArtGypsy » April 14th, 2010, 9:59 pm

Dar is one f o those dogs that can do *and will do* most anything I want him to, UNLESS his "prey drive ' or what-ever-you-want-to-call-it...HYPER FOCUS KICKS IN and then N-O-T-H-I-N-G will get his attention.

He wants and will respond to NOTHING I have.
His mind is in the zone...and sometimes, if I can physcially MAKE him look at me and get him distracted by food, I can get him to relax, if we're in the house.
In the community?
It scares me. :sad2:
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Anger that things are the way they are.
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Postby mnp13 » April 14th, 2010, 10:38 pm

Ok, this is what I would do.

Get a sturdy, but light weight long line. Tie it solidly to the porch. Put a choke chain on him, and his prong collar, and hook the leash to both of them - the choke is a back up and should be farther down his neck than the prong. Then bring him in the house.

At some point not long after, causally open the door and the gate and let him bolt out.

Yes. The correction is going to hurt. But it will hurt a lot less then the alternatives that could come with him getting ahold of another dog or being out in traffic, etc... When he gets up, call him once, and since he's on a long line, reel him in.

Will it "cure" the problem? Maybe not, but I'd be willing to bet that he'll think twice about charging out the door next time. and if it even slows down his "charge" then the situation has improved.

ArtGypsy wrote:In the community?
It scares me.

Then keep him home. :| Why make yourself nuts over it?
Michelle

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Postby jcoffey917 » April 15th, 2010, 9:56 am

It really must me in the air! Cooper attached a dog last weekend. I've been meaning to hop on here and vent about it, but I've been swamped with work and school. We were grilling in our backyard last Friday and my friend Nancy called to see if she could bring her dog over. She fosters for a rescue and wanted to do some socialization. I said, of course! Cooper loves other dogs! He'll have the best time and could use some exercise. Now that I think back, we did not handle the introduction the best way. I saw her coming up, so put Coopers leash on, but we stayed in the back yard. As she got up to the back fence, Cooper dragged me over, jumped on the fence and started growling at the other dog. He has never growled at another dog or person before. Thinking back, we should have brought them to a neutral area to do the intro, but Cooper has always LOVED other dogs. So I grabbed him off of the fence and dragged his butt inside because I didn't want anything to happen. As I was bringing him in, my friend came into the back yard with her dog. Well as soon as I let go of Cooper in the house, he bolted faster than I could grab him and ran right between my legs. Bolted out the door because the screen hadn't closed yet and grabbed the other dog by the neck. Again...should have made sure the door was closed before I let him go. :( Luckily he was only a few feet away. I grabbed his collar and twisted it to choke him and he let go of the other dogs neck immediately, which was lucky. I picked him up by his collar, someone else grabbed his butt, and we carried him into the house. This time, we closed the door before letting him go. Off to his crate he went for the rest of the afternoon because I was afraid he would run out the door again if people were coming in and out. No injuries to the other dog, thank god! My hand got in the way of her mouth as she was trying to get him off of her and it got a little scraped up, but nothing bad. Both dogs were acting fine after. I think it scared me more than anything else. Now I know to be extra careful.
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Postby maberi » April 15th, 2010, 3:29 pm

I'm sorry to hear of everyone's bad luck. I will say in Cooper's case to be extra careful from here on out with him and dogs he doesn't know when it comes to playing off leash. One thing that will often trigger a happy go lucky very social dog to fight again is that initial fight. I've seen it with a few other dogs and saw it first hand with my previous dog Yoda. He was the most social dog in the world with other dogs up until that point and after his first "throat grab", he was never the same and could not be trusted off leash unless he knew the dog very well.

How old is Cooper?
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Postby DemoDick » April 15th, 2010, 11:20 pm

mnp13 wrote:Ok, this is what I would do.

Get a sturdy, but light weight long line. Tie it solidly to the porch. Put a choke chain on him, and his prong collar, and hook the leash to both of them - the choke is a back up and should be farther down his neck than the prong. Then bring him in the house.

At some point not long after, causally open the door and the gate and let him bolt out.

Yes. The correction is going to hurt. But it will hurt a lot less then the alternatives that could come with him getting ahold of another dog or being out in traffic, etc... When he gets up, call him once, and since he's on a long line, reel him in.

Will it "cure" the problem? Maybe not, but I'd be willing to bet that he'll think twice about charging out the door next time. and if it even slows down his "charge" then the situation has improved.

ArtGypsy wrote:In the community?
It scares me.

Then keep him home. :| Why make yourself nuts over it?


Just wanted to add to what Michelle wrote, because I understand where the OP is coming from and what is likely to happen when this dog self-corrects.

You want this correction to stop him dead in his tracks and bring him right off of his feet. You'll know you have it right when he YELPS and immediately runs BACK to the porch. Do NOT feel bad about this. This is a good thing and it means you did it RIGHT. There is no such thing as an overcorrection when a dog is this far in drive, engaging in a dangerous self-rewarding behavior. You need this to stop NOW. The very worst thing you could do is enable this behavior by allowing it to go on any longer. This is the same situation as a kid who reaches for a boiling pot on the stove: no correction that you deliver is going to be as bad as the potential outcome should he be allowed to continue. And you don't have six months to a year to go through the necessary steps to get the kid to understand that grabbing the pot (or blasting through the gate) is dangerous and NOT grabbing the pot gets a treat.

For the life of me I cannot understand why anyone would feel guilty for delivering a correction in training that will save the dog's life in the real world.
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