LIMA! "least invasive, minimally aversive". I love it! It's a great description of an approach to training. I do use e-collars in one situation, for example--ie, to stop my Vanya from getting under 2 fences and chasing the neighbor's cattle. This is aversive, but it's less aversive than the alternatives: 1) getting kicked or killed by the cow or farmer; 2) having to stay on leash inside our 20 fenced acres for the next 13 years; or 3) getting through our fence and then hitting the extremely powerful electric fence belonging to the neighbor. But for all other situations, I can find a less aversive method to train the other behaviors I'm looking for (and he never goes near the fences anymore--but I keep the e-collar on for insurance, I guess).