Decoys as Adversaries....or Not?

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Postby furever_pit » February 1st, 2010, 9:30 pm

Recently I have been a part of a few conversations that attempt to compare the different dog sports to one another. I'm talking the protection sports...Schutzhund, FR, MR, PSA, etc. One of the things that has been brought up is whether or not the dog looks at the decoy is an adversary. The people I have talked to have claimed that the FR decoy is not an adversary for the dog like the Sch helper. I have asked for some clarification, and haven't received much in the way of helpful info. So I'm wondering what y'all think and why.
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Postby katiek0417 » February 3rd, 2010, 7:40 pm

I have heard that with both MR and FR, the decoy is more of a "sparring partner" as compared to PSA where they're more of an adversary/bad buy...
"Rumor has it, compulsion is evil."

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Postby furever_pit » February 3rd, 2010, 8:43 pm

katiek0417 wrote:I have heard that with both MR and FR, the decoy is more of a "sparring partner" as compared to PSA where they're more of an adversary/bad buy...


Can you explain why though? Is it a difference in the training? In PSA, does the decoy correct the dog to help it learn the exercise?
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Postby katiek0417 » February 3rd, 2010, 9:48 pm

furever_pit wrote:
katiek0417 wrote:I have heard that with both MR and FR, the decoy is more of a "sparring partner" as compared to PSA where they're more of an adversary/bad buy...


Can you explain why though? Is it a difference in the training? In PSA, does the decoy correct the dog to help it learn the exercise?


No, not at all (not typically)...
I thin the difference comes in the presentation made by the decoys.

In PSA there is a lot of forward action from the decoy...

In MR there are a lot of distractions that are used...so the dog has to be able to get past the environmental stuff...but, for the most part, the decoy isn't moving that much...

In FR, the decoy is told to esquive...there are many people that believe this is more of a prey action than it is a direct threat (as in a fully forward motion)...

This is just how I've understood it...and what I've been told...
"Rumor has it, compulsion is evil."

Katrina
Sacha CGC - Dumb Lab
Nisha CGC, PDC, PSA TC, PSA 1 - Crazy Malinois
Drusilla SLUT- Pet
Nemo - Dual-Purpose Narcotics
Cy TC, PSA 1, PSA 2, 2009 PSA Level 3 National Champion
Axo - Psycho Puppy
Rocky - RIP My Baby Boy
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Postby furever_pit » February 3rd, 2010, 10:46 pm

Thanks for the explanation Katrina. I had not thought about it that way and what you said makes sense.

katiek0417 wrote:In FR, the decoy is told to esquive...there are many people that believe this is more of a prey action than it is a direct threat (as in a fully forward motion)...


I am particularly interested in the use of the esquive on the face attack. I understand that many people do this as a way to slow down the dog on entry so that the contact is not as brutal when it is made. They do have other options though the decoy is not allowed to remain static in this exercise: a) create a barrage using the baton and unbar the entry at the last second or b) they may charge the dog. The charging option may be limited to Ring 3.

I would actually really like to see a decoy who charges on the face attack.

Sorry for the tangent, just thinking out loud.
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Postby mnp13 » February 4th, 2010, 12:16 pm

After a few esquives and some pressure, some dogs just give up.

furever_pit wrote:I understand that many people do this as a way to slow down the dog on entry so that the contact is not as brutal when it is made.

I don't think the contact is the point here, the esquive ends up making the dog think on the entry. If they just go flying down field and launch, then the decoy moves and the dog moves. I've seen dogs launch from 10 feet out (including Connor) and after one or two misses the dog pays a lot more attention to where it is going. That does not necessarily mean they go slower or that the impact is less - they just are more alert to what they are doing and where the decoy is.

Katrina - I don't think PSA decoys are allowed to esquive, correct? Why not?
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Postby furever_pit » February 4th, 2010, 1:13 pm

I understand that the esquive makes the dog think on re-entry. It also gives the decoy a chance to raise another barrage. I brought up the brutality of contact because it is explicitly addressed in the decoy's rule book.

I also think that just because the esquive causes the dog to think does not mean that it puts the same kind of pressure on the dog as say a courage test would.
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Postby mnp13 » February 4th, 2010, 2:35 pm

No, an esquive does not put the same pressure on a dog. Overall, I don't think there is "extra" pressure from an esquive at all. I don't think it's just on re-entry though, a dog that is constantly esquived can end up losing heart for the work and that says a lot about the dog overall. Esquieing is a different kind of test for the dog.

Connor gets really angry when esquived repeatedly and his contact is MUCH more forceful - and he'll keep trying.

Riggs will try a few times and then if there is not enough pressure will just give up and come back to me, he's in it for the fight and once it's just a game he doesn't care.
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Postby furever_pit » February 4th, 2010, 2:50 pm

Thanks for sharing your own observations about Riggs and Connor. I'm not really at a point to see how the esquive affects either of my boys because they are not at that point in their training.

I really appreciate y'all's input!
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Postby katiek0417 » February 4th, 2010, 4:27 pm

mnp13 wrote:After a few esquives and some pressure, some dogs just give up.

furever_pit wrote:I understand that many people do this as a way to slow down the dog on entry so that the contact is not as brutal when it is made.

I don't think the contact is the point here, the esquive ends up making the dog think on the entry. If they just go flying down field and launch, then the decoy moves and the dog moves. I've seen dogs launch from 10 feet out (including Connor) and after one or two misses the dog pays a lot more attention to where it is going. That does not necessarily mean they go slower or that the impact is less - they just are more alert to what they are doing and where the decoy is.

Katrina - I don't think PSA decoys are allowed to esquive, correct? Why not?


PSA decoys are not supposed to equive...that is not to say it doesn't occur - either because of decoy misunderstanding or because the judge's instructions are to keep the dog from biting and they only know how to do that by esquiving...trust me...Cy has been esquived a few times...

Now, that being said, PSA promotes the bicep bite...most dogs in FR (where esquiving occurs) are leg dogs...not only are they leg dogs, but they often come high on the legs...one reason for this is because esquiving can screw up a dog's targeting. Dogs that get esquived learn to go more towards the center mass...the reason for this is because extremities move more than center mass...so the dog learns to compensate...so, in PSA, where you've got a dog going for the bicep, if they go center mass, they start to go to the chest area...and that can hurt a dog...severely...

And, I will say...when Cy has been esquived, he's like Connor...it ticks him off...
"Rumor has it, compulsion is evil."

Katrina
Sacha CGC - Dumb Lab
Nisha CGC, PDC, PSA TC, PSA 1 - Crazy Malinois
Drusilla SLUT- Pet
Nemo - Dual-Purpose Narcotics
Cy TC, PSA 1, PSA 2, 2009 PSA Level 3 National Champion
Axo - Psycho Puppy
Rocky - RIP My Baby Boy
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