I had the boys "evaluated" today... (very long)

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Postby airwalk » January 4th, 2010, 12:49 pm

Holy Crap Christine! The guy is an avoid at all costs.
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Postby mnp13 » January 4th, 2010, 3:37 pm

wow... yup, that's right out the window!

Take Pit Bulls to a dog park for training? Huh? And with no offense intended to people who are in wheel chairs, it's hard enough to get dogs apart when you have everything working at 100%. I can't imagine trying to do it with the reduced leverage and reach of sitting down.

And after only meeting Sepp once, he feels that a prong and/or e-collar is likely going to be necessary for him? And after only meeting Faust once, he's sure that Faust won't need either?

Guaranteeing any training is somewhat sketchy, but guaranteeing it in a specific time frame? No-freekin-way.

maberi wrote:An ENORMOUS amount of corrections until Sepp finally shuts down.

I would agree. Many trainers do that as a "quick fix." You break the dog down to nothing, then put it back together how you want it - unfortunately, it doesn't always work and you end up with a basket case as the end result.

amazincc wrote:I would not be allowed to visit the dogs during those two weeks, since it "hinders" the training progress.

Having the owner hovering can sometimes cause some difficulties, but not being allowed to come at all? No way! Any trainer who is hiding what they are doing is up to no good. I do understand asking that you watch from a distance or another room during an evaluation or certain training, because I have found that to be very helpful in the past, but to tell you you can't be there at all? No way.
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Postby amazincc » January 4th, 2010, 3:51 pm

maberi wrote:Where are you guys located again?


Concord, NC

I guess the things that bothered me the most is that John didn't even want proof of vaccinations... and when you want to board dogs that's a must, IMO.
He also never refers to Sepp by name... it's always "Faust and your other dog". I got the distinct feeling he doesn't really like Sepp all that much.
While I wouldn't require a trainer to LOVE my dogs the way I do - there's no way I would send them off somewhere and "hope" for the best. And it's me who needs the training just as much, if not more. I want to learn how to handle my dogs better - and I don't see how that can be done by sending them to boot camp. :|
I think Sepp would come back as a huge mess and the "training" would do way more harm than good.
Sepp is such a sweet boy - he definitely needs some tweaking, but in his case patience and positive re-enforcement will be much more productive than an e-collar. :neutral:

I will keep looking, and work w/them on my own in the meantime. If I got Mick through 5 months of chemo I can't be that dumb... :doh: :P lol
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Postby amazincc » January 4th, 2010, 4:01 pm

mnp13 wrote: I do understand asking that you watch from a distance or another room during an evaluation or certain training, because I have found that to be very helpful in the past.



I agree... and I'm very willing to do that. At my house, or at whatever location training takes place.
But I want to be present, to observe and to learn... and to ask questions, and all that.
I'm sure I can beat the boys into submission myself if I got really heavy-handed, but that's not what I'm looking for.
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Postby amazincc » January 4th, 2010, 6:47 pm

Holy crap. :o
This is the e-mail I just received, after declining boot camp training.

Christine,
I'm sorry to hear that you are no longer interested in training your dogs with me.
I am urging you to reconsider that decision because, like I told you after my initial evaluation, pit bull owners are held to much higher standards by the public.
I do believe that Faust is a very easy going dog and will not be a problem, but your other dog has the potential to become very agressive and dangerous. I could see that in the way he interacted with me and I am certain that he will get worse in the future.
Faust and your other dog need heavy socialization with other dogs and people if you ever hope to get them certified. I have trained my own pit bulls at dog parks for years and I have had excellent results as you can see in my videos.
I recommended boot camp at my facility because your older dog needs to start over from the beginning. You saw yourself how he reacted to me, there was no obedience when I gave him a command. That is not acceptable in a pit bull.
At the very least you should consider rehoming him to a better suited and pit bull knowledgeable home, if you are not willing to train him properly or be much stricter in your dealings with him. The way he pawed at you and kept vocalizing at you is a concern since it shows a great lack of respect for you on his part.
Dogs like that are not above biting their owners or other people when they feel challenged in any way. Please keep that in mind at all times for your own safety.
He is a very big dog, and he is a very strong dog. He seems to be very stubborn and gets overly excited, which I also observed during my evaluation. You may not be the 'right' person to handle a dog like that, but I don't mean this personal in any way. Some pit bulls need harsher training and harder handling then others to teach them how to fit in and you yourself seem very soft spoken and mild mannered which can be counter productive when you have a strong willed pit bull.
Faust is very social and had no problems with me at all. Your other guy was very skittish and seems overly dependent on you. He was too concerned with what you wanted him to do when I asked him to perform some basic obedience and that is a red flag in this breed. My own pit bulls are trained to be obedient for anyone at any time, no matter what.
I can accomplish the same thing with your dogs if I have the opportunity to train them at my house.

If you change your mind please don't hesitate to contact me.

Regards,
John


I'm not quite sure he evaluated the exact same dog I've been living with for the past 18 months. :shock: >( :mad2: :bs: :crazy2:
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Postby Hundilein » January 4th, 2010, 6:50 pm

:shock:
Run away. Do not pass go, do not collect $200. Just run as far away as possible.
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Postby amazincc » January 4th, 2010, 6:54 pm

Hundilein wrote::shock:
Run away. Do not pass go, do not collect $200. Just run as far away as possible.


Consider yourself lucky that you didn't get mauled and/or severely injured when you met Sepp, Sarah! :shock: :wink:

That whole thing just left me speechless for now.
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Postby pitbullmamaliz » January 4th, 2010, 8:14 pm

That's unbelievable. What an ass. Thank god you didn't send Faust "and your other dog" to him. :rolleyes2:
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Postby Ino » January 4th, 2010, 9:29 pm

Wow- what a pompass ass that guy is :cuss: !!!! Honestly, the manipulation he used in his email reminds me of the manipulation that "trainer" I posted about in your other thread tried to use on me when I quit. He did have a bunch of dogs on his property- including a new litter of cane corso dogs with ears and tails already done (I don't think it was by a vet), but only one customer's dog that was there for training. In the 2 days I was there- the client's dog came out 2X for training (from his safe-like crate). One session lasted maybe 10 min but the 2nd one where he had me working with "corrections" for sit and straighten up on the dog lasted bout an hour (I know now that that was way to long and I feel bad I participated in that- I had no idea at all about dog training and thought he did). That was when the dog became defiant and refused to sit (rightfully so being I was popping the choker for that long) and when the guy took over and the dog would not listen to him, he helicoptered the dog by the leash. I can't even put into words what I thought and felt about the 2 days I spent on that job. I was so sickened after that day I never went back- even for the paycheck owed. He ran a bootcamp on a secluded property (he did pick ups rather than having you drop them off) and nothing that was in the brochure was what I witnessed. He also guarenteed results and I am sure the dogs were returned in a different state then before but it was based on intimidation and harsh treatment. I also did not like that he wanted me to train Ino with his methods because they were harsh and because he did protection training and honestly- I knew I did not need to be going there with Ino. I have no reason to train Ino for protection and do not have near enough experience with dogs to handle one trained for it. My thoughts for that is especially since his breed has such a bad reputation, I do not need to teach him to put his teeth on a person (bite suit or not) because I know I do not have the skills and know how to handle that type of training. In my opinion, training random customers dogs to do protection training is irresponsible because not everyone has the ability to handle them and not everyone has good intentions for such training. I am not bashing protection training- it has its place in the world- but I do not think it is for everyone or every dog and I know it was not for Ino and I. I am glad that the trainer you were dealing with showed his true colors before he was able to get his hands on your boys and I think that he would have made things worse for you and for Sepp. I learned a sad but valuable lesson about trainer's from the guy and gladly you knew something was not right about his boot camp because it is probably similar.
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Postby airwalk » January 4th, 2010, 10:40 pm

Christine the guy is an ass!

If you were asking him to train your dogs for something other than companions I might be able to be okay with the asking you to watch from another room...but you aren't. You were asking him to help you make them exceptional companion pets...that requires you!

I have seen too many owners that turned their dog over to a trainer in hopes that by some miracle the dog would be amazingly trained and the owners wouldn't have to do anything - in each case (again for companion animals) the dogs were fine with the trainer...but the owner wasn't involved and developed none of the obedience rapport with the dogs and gee guess what, it didn't work.

For the guy to assume that you can't handle Sepp is arrogance at it's worst. He obviously doesn't like Sepp and is letting that get in the way of his assessment.

Consider yourself amazingly lucky he didn't ruin your dogs.
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Postby LMM » January 4th, 2010, 11:06 pm

I got his fukking "other dog" right here :cuss:


It completely pisses me off how he refers to Sepp that way. Did you respond and say in big bold letters:

HIS NAME IS SEPPELL YOU COLOSSAL ASSHAT!

?

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Postby kera09 » January 4th, 2010, 11:49 pm

he thinks you should REHOME sepp???? You have got to be kidding me :nono: Screw him!!!! stay far away from that asshat! Im sure you will find a great trainer, but this guy def isnt the one. And after all ive read i highly doubt sepp is just going to turn and bite someone, give me a break!!
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Postby amazincc » January 5th, 2010, 12:04 am

Actually I was very cordial about the whole thing, Jenn. lol

To be fair - I have never observed John training a dog, so I don't want to speculate on what he might or might not do during the course of a session.
I really did like him when I met him, but we never talked about my dogs going to his boot camp... that came up later in his e-mails. I'm also okay w/people not liking my dog(s), for whatever reasons, but I have to take that into consideration when it comes to someone working w/them on a long-term basis.

I don't know how he got the impression that Sepp was... not respectful of me. :?
Sepp tends to paw me and "talk" to me at times when he's not quite sure what's expected of him, kind of like trying to get my attention and "ask" for directions... he's always done that, even as a small puppy.
But he was in no way, shape, or form overly inappropriate... or aggressive... or teetering on the edge of biting somebody... at least not that I could see. I saw some anxiety (the wheel chair, definitely) and over-exitment (very poor impulse control, for sure, which is our struggle when meeting new people :rolleyes2: ), but that was it.

John apparently read him totally different, so... that's his opinion.
Yeah, maybe his "title" made me temporarily lose my mind and believe some of his statements, but I have never once been afraid of Sepp, or have considered re-homing him... jeez. This dog tucks his tail when I speak harshly to him... he's not exactly a hard-ass. :lol3:
Faust is more personable, I think... so it's probably easier to like him right away, at least for some people.
Sepp ADORED my mother & brother, and he LOVES the mail man. Good enough for me. :D

I'm sure we'll find a good trainer to help us w/some of our minor stuff (which it is - really - minor stuff, compared to Mick) eventually.

But, damned... you guys have some really good instincts, especially over the internet! I'm impressed. :wink:
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Postby HappyChick » January 5th, 2010, 12:19 pm

Oh My Goodness, I was blown away by this guy's email to you!!! He is clearly trying to manipulate you through fear. Fear of Sepp turning on you and fear that you can't handle him so would have to loose him by rehoming. This guy severely underestimated you!!!!

He reminds me of a car salesman I had the displeasure of dealing with a long time ago. He was a really nice guy when trying to sell me a car, but got nasty and intimidating with me when I tried to leave without buying something right then.

I hope you find a worthy trainer soon. :)
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Postby dlynne1123 » January 5th, 2010, 9:06 pm

amazincc wrote: John thinks that Sepp exhibits all the signs of becoming DA, therefor he would be a very poor canditate for passing his CGC.



Why does this mean you should just no try? He could be perfectly fine, after training, on leash and in a controlled environment. I don't want to set him up to fail but I also would never discourage a client from trying to make his/her dog better! I am confused by his, wash out statement. Its not like you bought him for S & R and hes a wash out! Hes a pet, and any pet owner should have goals! You keep trying, and I think its always good to get two opinions.

I was told three times to put my girl down, now we're competing in weight pull, rally and agility fun. It makes her more confident, and helped her overcome her fears. I think these activities would help focus a confident, challenging dog too! If I didn't want to try, I would have listened and gave in. Shes going on 5 with no incidents, or fear aggression as of, yet which three trainers warned me of, and that she was a loose canon.
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Postby dlynne1123 » January 5th, 2010, 9:14 pm

And Ryder got her CGC too, after all the bad evaluations, I still went from trainer to trainer, the more they told me to give up the harder I tried! Keep trying, and have your goals set. A good trainer will accomodate you!
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Postby airwalk » January 5th, 2010, 10:51 pm

This guy had no clue what he was taking on when he decided to take on one or two of "our dogs"....maybe you should invite him to PBT so we can pound him here too. :D
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Postby BigDogBuford » January 5th, 2010, 11:39 pm

He sounds like a no talent ass clown.
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Postby CinderDee » January 6th, 2010, 1:09 am

What an arrogant ass! :mad2:
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Postby mnp13 » January 6th, 2010, 2:40 am

Here, I wrote a response for you: :)

---------------------------------

John,

I have owned PitBullTalk.com for the past four years. Over those four years I've seen a lot of members come and go, a couple years ago, Christine joined the forum with her dog Mick in tow... Mick was the headline-waiting-to-happen that all responsible Pit Bull owners dread. However, Christine was determined to do right by him, and my forum does not drum off members for having "bad dogs" and we worked with her as a community to get Mick on the right track.

Recently, she told us about your evaluation of her dogs. She has two Pit Bulls, to refresh your memory, their names are Seppel and Faust.

I found your comments about them to be quite puzzling, and now that she has decided against sending her dogs to you for what amounts to two weeks of sequestered training, I find your recent comments even more puzzling.

"I do believe that Faust is a very easy going dog and will not be a problem, but your other dog has the potential to become very agressive and dangerous. I could see that in the way he interacted with me and I am certain that he will get worse in the future."

As far as I understand, you met Sepple one time only and based on that extremely limited interaction you are not only claiming to ability to judge his potential to become aggressive in the future, but you are also "certain" that his behavior will get worse? Only two things in life are certain - death and taxes, and medical science is working on the former.

"Faust and your other dog need heavy socialization with other dogs and people if you ever hope to get them certified. "
CGC certifications require basic manners, and for dogs with behavior problems, it requires good obedience. Dog aggressive and even human aggressive dogs pass the CGC regularly. There is NO need for any dog-dog socialization for the CGC.

"You saw yourself how he reacted to me, there was no obedience when I gave him a command. That is not acceptable in a pit bull."
Pit Bulls are just dogs, and even highly titled obedience dogs often ignore strangers commands when their owners are present. A dog ignoring commands being "acceptable" or not has nothing at all to do with what breed that dog is.

"At the very least you should consider rehoming him to a better suited and pit bull knowledgeable home, if you are not willing to train him properly or be much stricter in your dealings with him. The way he pawed at you and kept vocalizing at you is a concern since it shows a great lack of respect for you on his part."
This is one of the rudest things I've read in a while. Who are you to judge anyone's suitability as a dog owner? Your arrogance is astounding. Though your assessment of Seppel's behavior as being disrespectful may be correct, that does not make Christine an unfit owner.

"Dogs like that are not above biting their owners or other people when they feel challenged in any way."
A dog that paws and vocalizes at its owner is not on the slippery slope to sending that owner to the hospital. Could it happen? Sure. Is it probable? Not really, unless there is a shift in some other behavior or situation. Dogs don't go from putting their paw on your leg on Monday to biting you on Tuesday.

"He is a very big dog, and he is a very strong dog. He seems to be very stubborn and gets overly excited, which I also observed during my evaluation. You may not be the 'right' person to handle a dog like that, but I don't mean this personal in any way. Some pit bulls need harsher training and harder handling then others to teach them how to fit in and you yourself seem very soft spoken and mild mannered which can be counter productive when you have a strong willed pit bull."
You seem to be very stuck on breed, which says a lot about you as a trainer. When you point out that a dog "needs" heavy handling, then you have already sold yourself, the dog and the owner short. As a trainer your first responsibility is to the dog, and after the dog, the owner. No dog "needs harsh training," and if the owner doesn't want it, as a trainer, it is your job to find other solutions.

"My own pit bulls are trained to be obedient for anyone at any time, no matter what. I can accomplish the same thing with your dogs if I have the opportunity to train them at my house."
I have a couple dogs, I have been teaching for a few years, and I have a soft spot for problem dogs. I work hard with them, and do my best to make progress every time I meet with them. However, I have never made claims like these, or made claims involving time limits, or made training promises that hinged on the owner not being able to observe or be involved in training. These types of things make your training highly suspect in my view. No dog is obedient for anyone at any time, and if you are guaranteeing that you are scamming people.

Of course, you bring Pit Bulls to dog parks, and I suppose that is really all I needed to know about you from the start. Responsible Pit Bull owning dog park member - oxymoron.

Though I'm sad for Christine that she has yet to find a good trainer, I'm glad that she has ruled out one more.

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