I had the boys "evaluated" today... (very long)

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Postby mnp13 » November 23rd, 2009, 5:43 pm

TheRedQueen wrote:I'm not happy with the "we can use positive reinforcement" with one and wants to put a prong collar on the other...seems all over the place in terms of training. (Yes, I know trainers should have many tools in their toolbox...yadda, yadda, yadda...) :neutral:

I thought that was kind of weird myself.

My brats dogs almost all start off with flat buckle collars and clickers - we go up as necessary.
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Postby amazincc » November 23rd, 2009, 6:14 pm

Okay... what do you guys suggest?

Faust was on-leash, w/a hemp collar, martingale-style. He was also very calm, and responsive to commands from both of us during the eval. Which, frankly, shocked me to no end. I underestimated that little devil. :oops: lol

Sepp was on-leash also, flat-buckle collar. Hopping, jumping, pushing, twirling and twisting... you name it. Hardly responded to anything (verbal and/or leash correction)... maybe the prong is supposed to help w/at least physically controlling him better? :|
I'm not a huge fan of prongs myself - what's a better alternative?
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Postby SvcDogSawyer » November 23rd, 2009, 6:36 pm

amazincc wrote:I cannot believe that I so completely misjudged Sepps behavior, and I'm somewhat horrified at myself.
"Good intentions" my ass... mine seem to be totally counter-productive.

On the other hand... I'm hopeful, since I really do like this trainer and I am willing to put in the work to get Sepp under control.

Still... how the f*** did I let this happen again??? <--- (Rhetorical question... no need to answer it.)


I have to totally disagree with your statement and If I could reach through this computer I'd smack the crap out of you! :cuss: YOU DID NOTHING WRONG, SO DON'T BLAME YOURSELF. :hug3: Did you purposely avoid people in wheelchairs cause we're weird and creepy(some of us kinda are) or is it that you just don't know anyone in a wheelchair or have not had the opportunity to train your dog from a chair?
This was not a fair eval for either of them. Wheels on a human are not natural. You'd probably have the same kind of reaction if you met an alien for the first time. Friendly or not, you don't know what their intentions are. You can't train for every possible situation, no one can.

Did you purposely avoid people in wheelchairs cause we're weird and creepy(some of us kinda are) or is it that you just don't know anyone in a wheelchair or have not had the opportunity to train your dog from a chair?

Sorry, but if your a dog trainer in a wheelchair, you should at least warn your potential clients.

I would definitely ask for a second evaluation from someone else.
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Postby SvcDogSawyer » November 23rd, 2009, 6:45 pm

Now that I'm done yelling at you. Go with what Michelle just said. You limit your options when you start out with a prong.
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Postby amazincc » November 23rd, 2009, 6:55 pm

SvcDogSawyer wrote:
amazincc wrote:I cannot believe that I so completely misjudged Sepps behavior, and I'm somewhat horrified at myself.
"Good intentions" my ass... mine seem to be totally counter-productive.

On the other hand... I'm hopeful, since I really do like this trainer and I am willing to put in the work to get Sepp under control.

Still... how the f*** did I let this happen again??? <--- (Rhetorical question... no need to answer it.)


I have to totally disagree with your statement and If I could reach through this computer I'd smack the crap out of you! :cuss: YOU DID NOTHING WRONG, SO DON'T BLAME YOURSELF. :hug3: Did you purposely avoid people in wheelchairs cause we're weird and creepy(some of us kinda are) or is it that you just don't know anyone in a wheelchair or have not had the opportunity to train your dog from a chair?
This was not a fair eval for either of them. Wheels on a human are not natural. You'd probably have the same kind of reaction if you met an alien for the first time. Friendly or not, you don't know what their intentions are. You can't train for every possible situation, no one can.

Sorry, but if your a dog trainer in a wheelchair, you should at least warn your potential clients.

I would definitely ask for a second evaluation from someone else.


:shock: :oops:
Point taken, John... :wink:

Yes, I agree w/warning your clients - I was a little taken aback, but I recover faster than a dog, I guess. lol

I also think seeing Faust NOT react at all is what magnified Sepps anxiety when he saw/reacted to the wheelchair... I was not prepared for that, had expected the total opposite.
Sometimes I think I expect too much from my dogs because they are Pit Bulls, because they are supposed to love all people and be unflapable... *sigh*

I don't know of any other trainers in the area, but I will speak to John about the wheelchair situation and Sepps reaction to it again.
I also think I might just start w/Fausts training and then apply some of the things I learn from that to Sepp on my own. It's easier for me to learn hands-on w/immediate feedback, that's the only reason I want to work w/a trainer in the first place.
I suck at getting good obedience w/my own dogs... too much of a push-over in that department. :P
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Postby airwalk » November 23rd, 2009, 8:13 pm

Thank you John....she needed that :D
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Postby amazincc » November 23rd, 2009, 8:32 pm

Hey... just because I'm a little paranoid and see things/behaviors that aren't there... or justified/explainable... :rolleyes2: :|

I already apologized to Sepp about a million times. :neutral:
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Postby airwalk » November 23rd, 2009, 10:32 pm

Hey does it help to know that I just about threw a party the other day....Magic walked by the resident shelter cat without being a complete idiot...I was ready to scream from the rooftops...feel better??
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Postby amazincc » November 23rd, 2009, 10:48 pm

airwalk wrote:Hey does it help to know that I just about threw a party the other day....Magic walked by the resident shelter cat without being a complete idiot...I was ready to scream from the rooftops...feel better??


YAY for progress!!!! GO, Magic!!! :confetti: :clap: :woowoo:
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Postby TheRedQueen » November 23rd, 2009, 10:59 pm

amazincc wrote:
And yeah, my little crazy girl got her CGC despite being HA. ;)

Sepp isn't HA at all, so I'm not concerned about that. :)
I think the trainer was/is a little apprehensive about his self-control around other dogs, as am I right now. W/some obedience and good manners... who knows? Getting the dogs CGC-certified eventually is definitely one of my long-term goals.


I was just bringing up the fact that Inara being HA did not keep her from getting her CGC (though we worked a LONG time on this, so I'm not discounting the training)...I'm just bringing it up as an example a dog with issues getting her CGC. I think it's harder to get a HA dog to get the CGC, than a DA dog...as there are people actually touching the dog, and petting/brushing the dog...where as the dog-dog interaction is pretty limited.

As Michelle says, even a DA dog can get the CGC with some good control.
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Postby Brownies Mom » November 23rd, 2009, 11:07 pm

amazincc wrote:after Mick passed I had promised myself never to screw up another dog ever again.


Wow. I'm so sorry. :sad2: It sounds like you are carrying around a very heavy burden. Please be a little kinder and gentler with yourself. Whatever happened, I would bet my life that Mick would not you want you to hurt like this, and would want you to believe in yourself and love yourself as much as he loves you. It sounds to me like you know more than you give yourself credit for, but have stopped trusting your instincts and believing in yourself. Whatever happened in the past, it has prepared you to do better in the future. All the mistakes we make with our dogs help us learn and evolve, and do better.

That being said, you obviously love these dogs and want to do everything you can for them. You can only go up from there. You are not in denial about anything, and you want to learn and do your best, so I'm sure you will find out everything you need to know. I'll bet if those fur kids could talk, they would tell us all how great their mom is, how much she loves them, and what a great life they have. :bounce: That's really all that matters to them.

I think you have good instincts, and should trust them. :wave2: You wrote a couple of times that Sepp is "all over the place," and that you knew he needed serious work for the CGC, so you were right about him. It sounds like you got a good feeling about John, and that you want to give him a shot. If that's the case, you really should. If you begin to feel he's not good for Sepp, you can stop using him with Sepp. Maybe he'll be perfect for Faust, though - who knows?

It's good that you have set goals for Sepp, like the CGC. Celebrate and reward even the smallest of his successes, and he will learn what you want from him. I'm sure he is going to try his hardest to get things right, and that he wants to please you. Dogs are great that way. Most of all, believe in yourself. Your dogs do. :dance:
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Postby amazincc » January 4th, 2010, 12:58 am

Bleh... I guess I should update this... :neutral:

The weather has been really bad (lots of rain and very, very cold) during the last few weekends... my yard is a huge mud hole/swamp... bad for a wheel chair, and training in general.
John and I had been e-mailing back and forth a few times, and he had been urging me to consider sending the boys to his "boot camp"... two weeks at his house w/all their food/toys/crates - the works.
He said they would "shadow" him for 14 days, be exposed to lots of other dogs, people, and different situations inside and outside of the home, and have regular trips to... the dog park. :shock: :swoon:
Well, crap. That alone would be a deal breaker for me. :rolleyes2:
In those two weeks he would be teaching them basic obedience on and off leash... sit, stay, heel, come, drop it, and lay down. At the end of those two weeks he *guarantees* their readiness for CGC certification. Hmmm... okay then.
Sepp needs to bring a prong collar... Faust doesn't.
Sepp might require training w/an e-collar... Faust doesn't.
I would not be allowed to visit the dogs during those two weeks, since it "hinders" the training progress.

So... I did some additional digging and found several other ads advertising his training/camp. One of them states that he can train any dog of any age as a certifiable service dog, for anyone, with any handicap... in SIX weeks. :shock: :o

*Sigh*

Sepp was right when he tried to knock that little bullsheister out of his wheel chair. :nono: lol

And, I'm going to keep looking... :P
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Postby plebayo » January 4th, 2010, 1:05 am

Really the biggest thing that I think is sketch is that you wouldn't be able to see your dogs.

I can understand a trainer taking a dog from a person and not having the owner involved for maybe the first week so that the trainer can have some one on one with the dog, and the dog can get comfortable without the owner being there.

But for the owner to not be able to see the dog ever in the training period? No way.

In the horse world we have trainers like that, I have heard so many horror stories of people not being able to see their horses while they are in training and then showing up to find an emaciated horse or find out the trainer had been using very inhumane methods. Granted we send our horses off for months at a time, but it's the same principal. You want to see the trainer in action, with your dogs, and you want to see the progress and how it is being achieved.

I also think it's important for people to be there while the dog is learning because the owner needs to be trained as well, just because the trainer can make your dog do it doesn't mean you can.

Good job spotting that the guy was not worth your time, no worries Christine I'm sure the right trainer will come along! As it is from your other post it sounds like the boys are doing well and so are you and that they're better behaved than they were :)
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Postby amazincc » January 4th, 2010, 1:16 am

plebayo wrote: You want to see the trainer in action, with your dogs, and you want to see the progress and how it is being achieved.

I also think it's important for people to be there while the dog is learning because the owner needs to be trained as well, just because the trainer can make your dog do it doesn't mean you can.


Exactly. I definitely want to be involved and do hands-on training, that's why I wanted John to come out and meet the dogs in the first place. Over the past few weeks he totally changed his tune and thought I might become a "distraction". :|
And judging from Sepps reaction it would've taken him at least two weeks (or more) to even get comfortable around the wheel chair/trust John... I can't imagine what sort of training they would accomplish.

It's just disappointing because I really liked John that one time I met him. :neutral:
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Postby LMM » January 4th, 2010, 9:20 am

Oh man that has catastrophe written ALLLLLLLL over it. Yikes! First, there is no way in bloody blue hell I would leave one of my dogs with a trainer where I cannot come see my dogs. And while I know there are some good trainers out there, after some of the horrific cases of starvation and death, there is no way I'd leave my dog with a trainer period.
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Postby ArtGypsy » January 4th, 2010, 9:39 am

amazincc wrote:Bleh... I guess I should update this... :neutral:

The weather has been really bad (lots of rain and very, very cold) during the last few weekends... my yard is a huge mud hole/swamp... bad for a wheel chair, and training in general.
John and I had been e-mailing back and forth a few times, and he had been urging me to consider sending the boys to his "boot camp"... two weeks at his house w/all their food/toys/crates - the works.
He said they would "shadow" him for 14 days, be exposed to lots of other dogs, people, and different situations inside and outside of the home, and have regular trips to... the dog park. :shock: :swoon:
Well, crap. That alone would be a deal breaker for me. :rolleyes2:

Sepp needs to bring a prong collar... Faust doesn't.
Sepp might require training w/an e-collar... Faust doesn't.
I would not be allowed to visit the dogs during those two weeks, since it "hinders" the training progress. :P


OH-HELL-NO >( :bs: :nono:



:crazy2: >(
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Postby TheRedQueen » January 4th, 2010, 10:13 am

:shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:
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Postby Hundilein » January 4th, 2010, 10:16 am

Yeah, that has disaster written all over it. Plus, I never trust a trainer who guarantees their work. In my opinion, that is unethical, as there's no telling how a dog will react to training and how long it might take. Keep looking, I know there are some good trainers in your area, you just need to find one that is a good fit. (PM is on the way with some names :wink: )
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Postby TheRedQueen » January 4th, 2010, 10:36 am

So... I did some additional digging and found several other ads advertising his training/camp. One of them states that he can train any dog of any age as a certifiable service dog, for anyone, with any handicap... in SIX weeks


Now I see why there are so many crappy Service Dogs out and about in the world... :bs:
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Postby maberi » January 4th, 2010, 10:49 am

amazincc wrote:And judging from Sepps reaction it would've taken him at least two weeks (or more) to even get comfortable around the wheel chair/trust John... I can't imagine what sort of training they would accomplish.


An ENORMOUS amount of corrections until Sepp finally shuts down.

I somehow missed this thread but couldn't help but see the similarities in how you described how eye opening it was during your first meeting with the trainer and how you were totally off in reading your Sep. I had the same eye opening experience many years ago with Karma. What I slowly learned over the next few years was that those first set of trainers I worked with, really had no clue about what they were talking about, and most of them used an enormous amount of aversives to train dogs in such a short amount of time.

Where are you guys located again?
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