Suit/Sleeve - Dogs that Do Both?

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Postby furever_pit » November 17th, 2009, 11:39 pm

I have seen several dogs recently that are able to work (and work well) on either the suit or the sleeve. What are the pros and cons in training your dog to work in either situation? Do you normally train one before the other, or can you teach a dog on both at the same time?

Just curious. Thanks.
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Postby Leslie H » November 21st, 2009, 10:12 pm

Xanny was started on a sleeve, and later had to learn the suit. She was never as confident on the suit as the sleeve. It was a challenge for her to learn to turn her head for a leh bite. Also, there's less thinking with a sleeve, they know where exactly to grip, no decision making process.
If I was to start another dog, I'd start them on a suit (legs).
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Postby katiek0417 » November 22nd, 2009, 11:06 am

I always start my dogs on a sleeve (when they get to that point)....They get nice an confident on a sleeve before I move them to either a shoulder sleeve or a leg sleeve...from there, they progress to a suit.

When they are on the sleeve, they work in progression from a softer sleeve with a bite bar all the way up to a hard barrel sleeve...When the dog can compress a hard barrel sleeve they can move to suit material for leg or shoulder bites (and I start with shoulder and leg sleeves so that I can slip for the dog when they are first learning these targets)...

It's been my experience that putting the dog on the barrel sleeve creates that confident, hard and full bite that you want in sport...

It's also my opinion that any time I teach something new, I put my dogs back on a sleeve (even if they are mostly suit dogs)...so, whenever I teach the out, for example, I put them back on a backtie and a sleeve - even if they've been on the suit for a while.

Our dogs, even our high-level (i.e., Cy, Asja, and Jue) work just as well on a sleeve as they do a suit...everything they ever learned was on a sleeve so it's easy for them to go back and do it, then they're used to doing a suit...I mean, PSA uses a suit...so that's what they mostly do...but I know both Greg and I plan on trying to get our SchA on both Cy and Asja...and we could probably do it with very little training on the sleeve...

Leslie H wrote:Xanny was started on a sleeve, and later had to learn the suit. She was never as confident on the suit as the sleeve. It was a challenge for her to learn to turn her head for a leh bite. Also, there's less thinking with a sleeve, they know where exactly to grip, no decision making process.
If I was to start another dog, I'd start them on a suit (legs).


How was the decoy presenting the leg to her...I've seen quite a few dogs have a hard time learning this if the leg isn't presented the right way at first...if the leg is presented straight, the dog just can't learn to turn it's head if it's never done it before...it actually almost needs to be presented at an angle...

Also, as far as never being as confident on the suit as on a sleeve, that may have been an entirely different issue...
"Rumor has it, compulsion is evil."

Katrina
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Nisha CGC, PDC, PSA TC, PSA 1 - Crazy Malinois
Drusilla SLUT- Pet
Nemo - Dual-Purpose Narcotics
Cy TC, PSA 1, PSA 2, 2009 PSA Level 3 National Champion
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Postby furever_pit » November 22nd, 2009, 11:56 am

Thanks for the feedback y'all.
I find it interesting that you teach everything with the sleeve K. It makes sense what you say tho -- that you can teach the full bite and grip on the sleeve and then maintain it when you move over to the suit.

I have the boys set up for an evaluation with a FR trainer in a few weeks and I'm just wondering if I'll be able to bring Dylan back to Sch for competition. But the way you have described it, I'm thinking that I will be able to as long as the training is done correctly.
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Postby mnp13 » November 22nd, 2009, 11:59 am

Riggs and Connor both do both...

If Connor sees a sleeve, he will bite the sleeve. In that way he is "equipment fixated" and knows that he should bite the sleeve and the sleeve only. He generally stays nicely centered and full as well. With a suit, he generally stays upper body, and likes the high flying bites - but he'll bite anywhere. If he doesn't see a suit or a sleeve, and he's sent to bite, he just bites.

Riggs, well... he's not much of a jumper. He was started on legs with a leg sleeve by one trainer. He was also started on a "regular" sleeve by a different trainer. So decoys can not be lazy and not draw him up to the arm if they are only wearing an arm sleeve and nothing else. In a suit, he'll bite anything, though I really want to find someone who fits in my suit so I can get him back on legs exclusively. (helllllooooooo, Rochester people... :wave2: I'm not above begging)
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Postby katiek0417 » November 22nd, 2009, 12:56 pm

furever_pit wrote:Thanks for the feedback y'all.
I find it interesting that you teach everything with the sleeve K. It makes sense what you say tho -- that you can teach the full bite and grip on the sleeve and then maintain it when you move over to the suit.

I have the boys set up for an evaluation with a FR trainer in a few weeks and I'm just wondering if I'll be able to bring Dylan back to Sch for competition. But the way you have described it, I'm thinking that I will be able to as long as the training is done correctly.


People have said that Asja is one of the hardest dogs in PSA (and she's a female), and she was taught that way...

Jue, who has no teeth, can still hold on doing a courage test, and he was taught that way...

I like that crushing grip that's going to hurt...

I've seen too many dogs that are moved to the suit too early, and their grip is more of a lazy/soft grip...

Also, here is my theory (and Michelle has mentioned this before)...if your dog can't out off of a sleeve, how can it out off of a suit? There's more pressure when the dog is on the suit...so it needs to learn the out from something easier before you get to more complex...
"Rumor has it, compulsion is evil."

Katrina
Sacha CGC - Dumb Lab
Nisha CGC, PDC, PSA TC, PSA 1 - Crazy Malinois
Drusilla SLUT- Pet
Nemo - Dual-Purpose Narcotics
Cy TC, PSA 1, PSA 2, 2009 PSA Level 3 National Champion
Axo - Psycho Puppy
Rocky - RIP My Baby Boy
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Postby furever_pit » November 22nd, 2009, 1:20 pm

katiek0417 wrote:People have said that Asja is one of the hardest dogs in PSA (and she's a female), and she was taught that way...

Jue, who has no teeth, can still hold on doing a courage test, and he was taught that way...

I like that crushing grip that's going to hurt...

I've seen too many dogs that are moved to the suit too early, and their grip is more of a lazy/soft grip...

Also, here is my theory (and Michelle has mentioned this before)...if your dog can't out off of a sleeve, how can it out off of a suit? There's more pressure when the dog is on the suit...so it needs to learn the out from something easier before you get to more complex...


That lazy grip is one of my main concerns about moving to the suit. I just really enjoy seeing a dog who targets well, bites full, and hangs on. As for the out, I can take it slow with Dylan -- like we pretty much had to do with all of his obedience -- I am using lower value toys at home now to teach him the command and we will work up to using the tug and pillow before moving over to the sleeve and suit. He's one of those dogs that has trouble "hearing me" when he is high drive but I actually kinda like the challenge. :crazy2:

I am not sure how this trainer is going to introduce the suit or if he uses the sleeve in conjunction with the suit as you described K. Guess we will have to wait and see.
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Postby Leslie H » November 22nd, 2009, 10:56 pm

we'd had some failure w/Sch (pressure, not grips), I wound up w/a ring trainer. He took her back to bite development on a tug. Leg bites were later introduced on a tug as well, but perhaps she needed even more angle than offered. One side was harder for her to turn to than the other. She became much more sleeve sure and confident after the ring training, for what it's worth.
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Postby katiek0417 » November 23rd, 2009, 5:53 am

Leslie H wrote:we'd had some failure w/Sch (pressure, not grips), I wound up w/a ring trainer. He took her back to bite development on a tug. Leg bites were later introduced on a tug as well, but perhaps she needed even more angle than offered. One side was harder for her to turn to than the other. She became much more sleeve sure and confident after the ring training, for what it's worth.


I definitely see a lot more success if the leg is presented at around 45 degrees...and with a leg sleeve...again, just my experiences...Of course, it could just be easier for herders to learn the head turn...although I've seen many pits learn to do it well...so, who knows...
"Rumor has it, compulsion is evil."

Katrina
Sacha CGC - Dumb Lab
Nisha CGC, PDC, PSA TC, PSA 1 - Crazy Malinois
Drusilla SLUT- Pet
Nemo - Dual-Purpose Narcotics
Cy TC, PSA 1, PSA 2, 2009 PSA Level 3 National Champion
Axo - Psycho Puppy
Rocky - RIP My Baby Boy
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