furever_pit wrote:Because he had to overcome a bit of conflict even in the beginning with a pillow to get a full and committed bite from him
I guess I'm just a little confused as to why sometimes Dylan is awesome on the sleeve and then sometimes he's not.
I guess I would think that once the dog is comfortable with it that that would be it.
I think those three comments answer your question actually. You had to overcome conflict just to get him to bite a
pillow. He's comfortable with that now, but you jumped from a pillow - which took a while, to a sleeve which is
totally different, and has more pressure and stress. As for why he's sometimes ok and sometimes not, there are a million variables - decoy, weather, mood, you, your mood, your handling, where you are standing, where your trainer is, what collar he has on, what harness... you name it...
especially if he's unsure. If the dog is unsure already, the smallest thing can throw it off.
Look at all the "pre-trial" routines that some handlers have, the minute they skip one thing everything falls to pieces. At a certain point, the dogs need all that rigid routine as well. You've seen it... Sch III dogs who run past the decoy in blind #5 to do the bark and hold at empty blind #6. Routine is comfortable, and once you change it sometimes you need to back way up.
Do you have a sleeve that is as soft, or softer, than the pillow or at least doesn't have any bite bar?
furever_pit wrote:It is too early to start incorporating the out in Dylan's bitework. Because he had to overcome a bit of conflict even in the beginning with a pillow to get a full and committed bite from him we are not going to start asking him to drop that bite yet. By lifting him off of the ground, he does not realize that we are taking the pillow back from him...all he knows is that he is letting go.
Ick. Double ick. (Sorry.) You're talking to the wrong person on this one. I have a dog that never lets go. As in, see my avatar? I pulled him from the DSO because the night before the trial he held on to the decoy for
15 minutes, and was actually falling asleep on the bite. I got him off by handing him to Demo and grabbing his upper and lower jaws and pulling them open - while everyone watch and waited for me to get my fingers chomped (which didn't happen)
He knows you're taking the pillow, because when he lets go of the pillow, then the pillow is gone and you have it.
I've seen the choke off used by many people as well, I used it for a looooong time. All I did was learn how to choke my dog. It's a very common method to teach the out for herders, most are quite sensitive to it; not all bull breeds are though. I've watched a number of dogs (Malinois mostly) get taught to out by being choked off, two or three times and the dog pops right off as soon as you reach for the collar. But be aware that you may not get that reaction once it's really time to use it with Dylan - fighting dogs just fight harder, they let go faster, because they get tired but they just become more determined to
try harder.
Greg and Cheryl both suggested using the double decoy method of teaching the out, and if I had two decoys I'd do it because I am 100% positive it would work with Riggs. You might want to give it a try, especially since you have two decoys (I'm jealous!); it's a good game to teach, it works a fast out, and it doesn't kill brain cells.