furever_pit wrote:I have checked Dylan's mouth several times and there is nothing I can see that would be causing a problem. There are no loose or broken teeth and except for a VERY small amount of red gums there is nothing.
I want to add that we have not done any courage bites or really put any pressure on the dog in bite work yet. He has not even been driven. And, yes, we are using an actual trial sleeve. We used the intermediate sleeve for one session and Dylan rocked it but at that point the TD explained to me that we should move on to the trial sleeve because sometimes dogs have a hard time with equipment changes.
I really appreciate your input, what you say makes tons of sense to me. It may just be that we need to build a little more drive for the hard sleeve and allow a few confidence-building bites followed by sleeve slips and perhaps elongated carries so that Dylan can relieve any stress he is feeling. This is definitely something I will be talking to my TD about at training tomorrow.
Also, do you think that it would be best for Dylan to work on only one decoy at this point? At the club he has worked on 5 different decoys and I regularly let other decoys at shows and stuff work my dog. Maybe that was not the best thing for him? Maybe part of the conflict is coming from new environment/new decoy?
katiek0417 wrote:Okay, in my experience, you get a dog very solid (consistently) on one piece of equipment before moving to the next. Even to the point where my puppies are doing little sends on bite tugs...once they are doing that consistently, they move to the next piece of equipment, which with my dogs, is a puppy sleeve...
Our dogs start EVERY piece of equipment (including the suit) on a back tie....everything they need to be introduced to (drive to the side, distraction, etc) is done on the back tie. The out is done on the back tie...
And it's a progression from back tie, to posting out, to little backups where the dog drags you in, to sends...
Of course, this is probably why it takes our dogs nearly 2 years to be shown a suit...is it repetitive? Yes. Does it get boring? Yes...but Greg has found that this is what brings consistency.
I would take him back to a softer sleeve, and make sure he goes through every step before moving him up...get him fully comfortable before taking him to the next step.
In addition, if he comes out and decides WTF...put him up...he's done for the day...also, I don't know how many bites you give him, but Greg always limits sessions for young dogs to 3-4 bites...and if the dog isn't biting, he's put up.
Also, remind me how old he is....
Finally, when you do bitework, are you outing him, or letting him carry?
furever_pit wrote:Dylan is 3 years old, but we've only been doing this for about 6 months I think. I have not yet introduced an out into the bitework. Dylan gets to carry the sleeve and when he puts it down on the ground, I either pull him off (if I can catch him in that moment where he actually lets go) or if he rebites I pick him up by his collar and choke him off without saying a word. Dylan also does not get a long session of bitework, he probably gets 3-5 bites and I put him up still wanting more. So you're saying that if Dylan doesn't take the first bite he goes back in the car? Should I let him out again later that night and see if he does better?
I've actually never used a backtie with Dylan, or with the puppy. We just use ourselves as posts at the club where I train. With both dogs I typically stand still and don't move unless my TD tells me to.
As for things getting boring or taking too much time, I don't look at it that way. I would MUCH rather put a lot of time into a strong foundation and just take it slow than end up in a situation where I have to fix things. I'm in no rush at all with my dogs (especially Dylan since he is pretty much my guinea pig anyway).
Thanks for your input Katrina. I really appreciate and value what you have to say. Y'all are really helping me figure this whole thing out. Thanks!
katiek0417 wrote:Yep....he gets put up if he doesn't take the first bite...Let him think about what just happened...About what he did...You can try to bring him back out...but if won't bite then, put him up again...this is actually a Jerry method (as well as Greg's)...
It's a little different, but Cy was having a hard time paying attention to the decoy he was supposed to be guarding if there was another decoy walking around (his eyes would stray)...so we put him on long line, and if he averted his eyes, the decoy would escape and we would keep him from biting...if he did it a second time, he was put away for that session...
Also, I did mean to also address your question about whether you should use different decoys or stick with one...I would let him see as many decoys as possible (as long as you trust them)...you don't want him eventually to get "caught" because it's a decoy he's not used to...remember dogs are creatures of habit...if you constantly let him see different decoys, and he's used to that, then seeing a different decoy in a trial should never be an issue...
Cool. Despite what it may have sounded like earlier, I don't let Dylan work on just any decoy. He gets to work on folks like Keith O'Sullivan or Chris Thompson; people I have seen work other dogs and who I trust. I specifically allowed him to work on Josh M. last weekend because Josh is a hard-ass as a decoy and I like that.
Also, the more I have thought about it I have realized that Dylan's really good sessions are when my TD (who hurt his shoulder) is directing the decoy. So I think what I will do is continue to allow Dylan to see new faces under the direction of my TD. Tho I will probably allow Chris to work Dylan again in Ocala in a few weeks because I trust him.
I also see what you are saying about putting the dog up. On one hand, I feel like "holy crap that is a looong drive to not even let my dog get a bite" but I can also imagine how frustrated it would make Dylan to get put up without a bite. Considering that Dylan will sit in my car and load allll freaking day, I'm pretty sure not getting a bite would drive him through the ceiling.
I've called my TD and he has agreed to meet me at training a little bit early tomorrow so that we can go over Dylan's bitework (and also our HIDEOUS obedience performance this past week). Again, I appreciate all the insight y'all have given me.
Dylan gets to carry the sleeve and when he puts it down on the ground, I either pull him off (if I can catch him in that moment where he actually lets go) or if he rebites I pick him up by his collar and choke him off without saying a word
furever_pit wrote:Because he had to overcome a bit of conflict even in the beginning with a pillow to get a full and committed bite from him
I guess I'm just a little confused as to why sometimes Dylan is awesome on the sleeve and then sometimes he's not.
I guess I would think that once the dog is comfortable with it that that would be it.
furever_pit wrote:It is too early to start incorporating the out in Dylan's bitework. Because he had to overcome a bit of conflict even in the beginning with a pillow to get a full and committed bite from him we are not going to start asking him to drop that bite yet. By lifting him off of the ground, he does not realize that we are taking the pillow back from him...all he knows is that he is letting go.
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