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Postby BigDogBuford » September 28th, 2009, 3:26 pm

Buford doesn't like dogs he doesn't know and frankly I don't feel the need to make him 'play' with them. So he doesn't like strange dogs. I don't particularly like strange people either. :|
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Postby pitbullmamaliz » September 28th, 2009, 3:38 pm

BigDogBuford wrote:So he doesn't like strange dogs. I don't particularly like strange people either. :|


This is my thing, too - I don't like the majority of people I meet (yes, I'm jaded), so why should I expect Inara to like most of the dogs she meets? Do I expect her to behave on leash? Absolutely.

And I agree with Michelle - with as many breeds as there are in this world, why do we have to try to change the ones that already exist? My life would be easier if Inara loved every other dog, but I knew when I got into the breed (as I did a crapload of research) that there was a strong possibility of DA. I accepted that possibility and cheerfully deal with it now.

And here's the link to the video of Riggs & Inara that Michelle referenced: viewtopic.php?f=19&t=23382
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Postby BigDogBuford » September 28th, 2009, 3:54 pm

Oh yeah, here's a good example of what a determined dog can do:

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=15047&hilit=+buford+wall
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Postby ArtGypsy » September 28th, 2009, 7:27 pm

I had an oh-so-fun evaluation last summer with the Spaniel that bites if you reach over his head... um... at some point I had to reach over his head. Yeah. He bites. That was fun.[/quote]



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Postby BullyLady » September 28th, 2009, 9:54 pm

mnp13 wrote:Part of owning a Pit Bull is possibly dealing with dog aggression. Don't like it? Don't get a Pit Bull. There are quite literally hundreds of breeds of dogs in the world, there must be another one out there for people who don't like dog aggressive ones.


For me this is what it comes down to. I did my breed research, I knew what I was getting into, and the DA doesn't bother me one bit. Shelby reminds me of your descriptions of Riggs, she looks like she wants to play, but um.... not the kind of play the happy-go-lucky lab meant. :rolleyes2: I like her tenacity, I like her stubbornness, I like that she will go back to a task that she failed or to something that may have initially startled her. I truly do think alot of that will be lost if breeders try rid bully breeds of DA. I know this thread has mostly been talking about pits, but I have found my ABs to be really similar in this regard.

Basically, if you don't want a DA dog get another breed. Don't water down our bullies, most of us like them just the way they are.
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Postby TheRedQueen » September 28th, 2009, 9:59 pm

Then on the other hand you can have weird little herding dogs that aren't DA, but not crazy about other dogs. My dogs are NOT like labs and goldens are for the most part. They don't play with any canine that comes into their sphere of awareness...they have to know a dog for a while before playing usually...or feel comfortable with that dog. :| They do tolerate other dogs...but don't play a bunch. We had a lab boarding here over the weekend that got rather frustrated that none of mine would play lab games with him...they were pefectly happy playing together, and excluding the lab. 8) I took the lab to play with another client today...a golden. They did goofy retriever things together... :|
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Postby Leslie H » September 28th, 2009, 10:40 pm

The fundamental nature of breeds were changed several times before perfection was achieved and a standard was written. Who's to say that there isn't room for improvement even now esp. if it is to benifit the dog to live more peaceably in such a negative society. I'm not talking about adding to the foundation stock to alter the breed entirely. I'm talking abut selective breeding of dogs that are known to be less DA (or not at all) yet still retaine all the other qualities of the breed we adore.


Whenever I hear of a breeder intentionally trying to breed out DA, it's usually a safe assumption that they are not a responsible breeder as I define it. First off, it demonstrates a lack of understanding of genetics. It is highly unlikely that the trait of DA is a isolated trait, instead, it is more likely to be linked with other traits. I always think of the Russian attempt at breeding friendlier, more docile foxes, and the unexpected traits that were linked (ear set, color).
At least as important, it shows that they are selecting for factors that are relatively unimportant (IMO), when compared with how small the breedable gene pool actually is. A responsible breeder should take into consideration; compatible pedigree, correct structure and compatible structural faults (don't double up on a fault), health testing including hip/elbow/patella x-rays and cardiologist screenings, and correct temperament and proven working ability/temperament (the latter will rule out uncontrollable DA). If you realized how small the number of breedable dogs there are, based on these criterion(criteria, I forget), then you would know that throwing in no DA is unreasonable.
Finally, when I hear a breeder trying to breed out DA, I realize that they have no real appreciation and understanding of the breed, and they won't be producing anything I'd be interested in, anyway.
Sorry, I'll climb off my high horse. I just get pissed when someone suggests breeding out DA is the hallmark of a responsible APBT breeder.
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Postby cheekymunkee » September 28th, 2009, 11:01 pm

BigDogBuford wrote:Buford doesn't like dogs he doesn't know and frankly I don't feel the need to make him 'play' with them. So he doesn't like strange dogs. I don't particularly like strange people either. :|



There is ONE dog on this planet that Munkee doesnt want to kill and that is Ollie (and truthfully he would LOVE to kill her but he knows I will take his head off). Right now he is in his usual spot.......right beside me while Ollie is gawd knows where. He has every opportunity to interact with her yet he totally ignores her. He doesnt need or want to be in a pack or he would be. There are 3 dogs and 5 cats here and he has NO desire to hang out with anything that is not human.

Leslie H wrote:
The fundamental nature of breeds were changed several times before perfection was achieved and a standard was written. Who's to say that there isn't room for improvement even now esp. if it is to benifit the dog to live more peaceably in such a negative society. I'm not talking about adding to the foundation stock to alter the breed entirely. I'm talking abut selective breeding of dogs that are known to be less DA (or not at all) yet still retaine all the other qualities of the breed we adore.


Whenever I hear of a breeder intentionally trying to breed out DA, it's usually a safe assumption that they are not a responsible breeder as I define it. First off, it demonstrates a lack of understanding of genetics. It is highly unlikely that the trait of DA is a isolated trait, instead, it is more likely to be linked with other traits. I always think of the Russian attempt at breeding friendlier, more docile foxes, and the unexpected traits that were linked (ear set, color).
At least as important, it shows that they are selecting for factors that are relatively unimportant (IMO), when compared with how small the breedable gene pool actually is. A responsible breeder should take into consideration; compatible pedigree, correct structure and compatible structural faults (don't double up on a fault), health testing including hip/elbow/patella x-rays and cardiologist screenings, and correct temperament and proven working ability/temperament (the latter will rule out uncontrollable DA). If you realized how small the number of breedable dogs there are, based on these criterion(criteria, I forget), then you would know that throwing in no DA is unreasonable.
Finally, when I hear a breeder trying to breed out DA, I realize that they have no real appreciation and understanding of the breed, and they won't be producing anything I'd be interested in, anyway.
Sorry, I'll climb off my high horse. I just get pissed when someone suggests breeding out DA is the hallmark of a responsible APBT breeder.


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Postby mnp13 » September 28th, 2009, 11:02 pm

Leslie H wrote:Sorry, I'll climb off my high horse. I just get pissed when someone suggests breeding out DA is the hallmark of a responsible APBT breeder.

No... please stay on your high horse, on this topic, that's definitely where you belong.
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Postby DemoDick » October 1st, 2009, 10:10 am

There have been some EXCELLENT responses to Dogshrink in this thread. I think it's clear that the OP needs a crash course in C&R until someone with the appropriate level of experience and understanding can get eyes on the dog for an assessment.


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Postby DropkickPA » October 1st, 2009, 1:54 pm

Agatha is NOT a fan of large dogs at this point. At all. I never let her be unsupervised with any dog, but she is never within touching distance of any dog over 40lbs because she is guaranteed to start getting snarky. Dogs smaller than that she is sweetness and light, larger and she goes into a snit fit. And she has definite food agression issues in our house if there is another dog there, straight up snarling snapping psycho dog, so her food dish is put up completely out of sight and there are no food type resources around her when she is around other dogs.

I rely on her always being on leash and on her obedience when we are out and about to avoid issues, I don't ever put her in the situation for there to be a fight (once I saw the tendency pop up). She is very anxious and not at all relaxed or happy when around the dogs that trigger her DA. She doesn't WANT to be around them. Her primary desire is to leave, second is to fight.

I have always been well aware of the tendencies of this breed and been watching carefully for them as she has grown up. They were never a deterrent for me, I expected them and expected to deal them as a matter of course since this is the breed I chose. I love her and them for their drive to please us, their loyalty and love for their people, their smarts, their strength, and their stubborness. And their short hair.

I grew up in a family that bred Golden Retrievers, a completely different breed with their own tendencies, and we saw them being bred by registered (but really useless) breeders for certain things (pretty soft coats) and being ruined in the process (fat 100lb blonde retards that couldn't retrieve their butts with a map that had not water shedding coats). Breeding for 1 specific trait by knuckleheads tends to screw up a whole slew of other things (like the hips, elbows, eyes, size, and brains), as has been seen in goldens, who have lost a lot of the breeds functionality because a soft pretty coat was being bred for. Breeding out DA in the APBT by marginal (at best) breeders is having unintended consequences on the best parts of the breed, and supporting that that action is shortsighted and ridiculous, showing little understanding of the phenotypic consequences that irresponsible breeding for traits causes to a breed.
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Postby pitbullgirl42 » October 8th, 2009, 8:12 am

Sorry I haven't posted any replies to my original post, my computer went on the fritz and I lost all of my bookmarks!

There's so much to respond to! Thanks for all of the input.

I am doing well, I have only a few small scabs remaining from my wounds, and can now sit comfortably again. :D

I have initiated a rotation and it is going fairly well so far. I'm not thrilled with the idea of my dogs spending hours a day in a crate, so I've avoided that thus far. I have a sunroom, but it's not heated, which is going to pose somewhat of a problem when Chicago winter hits full force! Currently, Cash is in the sunroom (with access to my privacy fenced yard) while Mina and Genghis are in the house, and then we switch. They are alternating nights in my bedroom. Mina and Genghis can be left loose in the house, but Cash is not entirely trustworthy yet when left alone. So on the nights when Mina and Genghis sleep in my room, Cash sleeps in the sunroom. When Cash is in my room, Mina and Genghis have the run of the rest of the house.

I think I may be able to gate off areas of the house and rotate them that way during the winter, the other option is to put a dog door to the yard from the sunroom and put space heaters in there. I haven't decided which option will work better with this particular house and situation. At least at this point, they aren't so intent on going after each other that I think that gating off rooms would be a problem. I know that may not work forever, but I think that it would afford them a greater quality of life than having them completely isolated in the yard and sunroom for hours a day.

I'm lucky that Cash gets to come to work with me a couple of times a week, and he really loves to be able to go, but Genghis hates being there, with other dogs walking past his kennel constantly, it's just too high stress of an environment for him to be in with any regularity, and I typically give him a sedative if I cannot avoid him coming with me (if he needs to be examined or have a procedure). It's the only way I avoid days of stress colitis after.

Genghis has Fibrosarcoma (I may have mentioned this in my initial post) and has had two surgeries to remove several tumors in the past few months. I recently found new tumors, and am in the process of deciding how to pursue his treatment from here out. The most recent tumor is in his quadriceps, and will require a large resection of muscle to remove. In the long run, if the tumor recurs in the same location, he may need amputation of a rear leg...or my decision to give up the fight against his cancer and let him live out the time he has left without further intervention. He still has amazing energy and spunk, nobody believes he is 11 years old.

His recovery from this surgery will be much more difficult than his previous surgeries, where the tumors were in his skin and only locally invasive. After the last two surgeries, he recovered well, and was back to romping in the yard and playing tug with Mina within two weeks, and would have been earlier if I had let him. He certainly will need around the clock care for a week, and will have several months until he is back to his normal self. This makes the rotation a lot more complicated.

I have noticed since the rotation, that the dogs are much more likely to engage in inappropriate behaviors than they were previously. One of the boys, and possibly both, have been marking a few objects in my house (I have seen Cash do it twice, but suspect that Genghis is overmarking Cash's spots). This is abnormal for them. While both of them would mark each other's spots in the yard, neither of them were lifting their legs in the house. Genghis has also been trying very hard to get into trash, and has also chewed up a couple of objects, something he hasn't done for several years. The last time I saw behavior like this from my dogs was when I had a boyfriend who didn't want the dogs sleeping in the bedroom with us. There was inappropriate behavior, elimination, and chewing during that period, but it disappeared when they were allowed to sleep with me again (this was several years ago, long before I had Cash).

I only have so many hours in the day, and naturally, the dogs being separated means that they each get less attention than they were used to. How do those of you on a rotation schedule handle this, especially if you have dogs who were previously all together and used to having your attention for many hours each day?

Thanks for any input,
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Postby DemoDick » October 8th, 2009, 9:28 am

I have noticed since the rotation, that the dogs are much more likely to engage in inappropriate behaviors than they were previously. One of the boys, and possibly both, have been marking a few objects in my house (I have seen Cash do it twice, but suspect that Genghis is overmarking Cash's spots). This is abnormal for them. While both of them would mark each other's spots in the yard, neither of them were lifting their legs in the house. Genghis has also been trying very hard to get into trash, and has also chewed up a couple of objects, something he hasn't done for several years. The last time I saw behavior like this from my dogs was when I had a boyfriend who didn't want the dogs sleeping in the bedroom with us. There was inappropriate behavior, elimination, and chewing during that period, but it disappeared when they were allowed to sleep with me again (this was several years ago, long before I had Cash).


What you are describing is not uncommon. All of a sudden you are imposing a few boundaries, and it follows that dogs acustomed to doing what they want when the want may start some other undesirable behaviors. The answer, for most people, is NILIF (which is actually a very good way of dealing with any dog who needs boundaries).

I only have so many hours in the day, and naturally, the dogs being separated means that they each get less attention than they were used to. How do those of you on a rotation schedule handle this, especially if you have dogs who were previously all together and used to having your attention for many hours each day?


Well, the first question I have is what have your dogs done to earn that attention? If you implement NILIF and make them earn every good thing in their lives like food, attention, house time, etc., those rewards take on more meaning than they ever did when they were freely given and it creates a "desire to please" in the dog. In the long run, they actually become happier as they begin to understand their role in the household as an active participant. Doing this also removes stress in both owner and dog, as it is a clear way to communicate your expectations of behavior and it shows the dog a clear path to get what it wants.

Don't focus so much on the quantity of time spent with each dog, focus on the quality. Challenge the dogs to actively think through obedience and you'll be amazed how tired they get in such a short time. Also teach the dog to embrace the crate as a sanctuary where there is no stress or expectation short of simply being quiet and calm. You'll know you're doing it right when the dog runs into the crate and enters a deep sleep as soon as he "comes down" from the excitement of training.

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Postby Marinepits » October 8th, 2009, 10:09 am

Here are some links about NILIF (Nothing In Life Is Free): viewtopic.php?f=19&t=9932

DemoDick wrote:Don't focus so much on the quantity of time spent with each dog, focus on the quality.


Agreed!
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Postby mnp13 » October 8th, 2009, 1:23 pm

pitbullgirl42 wrote:I have initiated a rotation and it is going fairly well so far. I'm not thrilled with the idea of my dogs spending hours a day in a crate, so I've avoided that thus far. I have a sunroom, but it's not heated, which is going to pose somewhat of a problem when Chicago winter hits full force! Currently, Cash is in the sunroom (with access to my privacy fenced yard) while Mina and Genghis are in the house, and then we switch. They are alternating nights in my bedroom. Mina and Genghis can be left loose in the house, but Cash is not entirely trustworthy yet when left alone. So on the nights when Mina and Genghis sleep in my room, Cash sleeps in the sunroom. When Cash is in my room, Mina and Genghis have the run of the rest of the house.

It sounds like you're making things work!

However, I would be careful about giving Cash free access to your yard when you are not home; even with a privacy fence. If the issue here really is him "turning on" and not just between him and Genghis specifically then a dog on the other side of the fence could easily give him enough drive to go over the fence. (well, not give him drive, but you know what I mean.)

Leaving dogs loose together when you're not home gives me the heebie geebies no matter what the breed, but at some point I've gotta quit picking at ya. :wink:

pitbullgirl42 wrote:At least at this point, they aren't so intent on going after each other that I think that gating off rooms would be a problem.

If you're not home I would never ever trust "gates" that were not basically doors made of metal bars. Determined dogs go through wooden doors, drywall and plenty of other things when they want to, but you have to draw a line somewhere, however a "normal" gate won't stand a chance. You never know when they will decide that they want to be that intent.

No dog is going to get out of a tiger cage, but that's just not realistic for most people to own (but we have one for sale! :) ) There is a point where you have to do the best you can and hope that's enough.

pitbullgirl42 wrote:He certainly will need around the clock care for a week, and will have several months until he is back to his normal self. This makes the rotation a lot more complicated.

Why does it make it more complicated? I'm assuming that he'll be crated for much of the time, especially at first, so that he doesn't cause any additional trauma to the surgery site? Won't he be on severe restriction for most of the time

DemoDick wrote:
I have noticed since the rotation, that the dogs are much more likely to engage in inappropriate behaviors than they were previously. One of the boys, and possibly both, have been marking a few objects in my house (I have seen Cash do it twice, but suspect that Genghis is overmarking Cash's spots). This is abnormal for them. While both of them would mark each other's spots in the yard, neither of them were lifting their legs in the house. Genghis has also been trying very hard to get into trash, and has also chewed up a couple of objects, something he hasn't done for several years. The last time I saw behavior like this from my dogs was when I had a boyfriend who didn't want the dogs sleeping in the bedroom with us. There was inappropriate behavior, elimination, and chewing during that period, but it disappeared when they were allowed to sleep with me again (this was several years ago, long before I had Cash).

What you are describing is not uncommon. All of a sudden you are imposing a few boundaries, and it follows that dogs acustomed to doing what they want when the want may start some other undesirable behaviors. The answer, for most people, is NILIF (which is actually a very good way of dealing with any dog who needs boundaries).

I agree - I just refer to it the same way I refer to it with kids - they are being spoiled brats and "acting out." So... now it's time to ground them... no TV, no phone, no computer, home right after school, no youth group. (oh wait, I'm having a flashback)
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Postby pitbullgirl42 » October 9th, 2009, 12:24 am

However, I would be careful about giving Cash free access to your yard when you are not home; even with a privacy fence. If the issue here really is him "turning on" and not just between him and Genghis specifically then a dog on the other side of the fence could easily give him enough drive to go over the fence. (well, not give him drive, but you know what I mean.)


When nobody is home, Cash is closed in the sunroom, with no access to the yard. Genghis and Mina are never really left unsupervised outside because I KNOW that Genghis could go over the fence if he really had motivation to do so. We had a really ballsy squirrel this summer that ran along the top of the fence for a short period of time before Genghis finally nabbed him.


If you're not home I would never ever trust "gates" that were not basically doors made of metal bars. Determined dogs go through wooden doors, drywall and plenty of other things when they want to, but you have to draw a line somewhere, however a "normal" gate won't stand a chance. You never know when they will decide that they want to be that intent.
I'm assuming that he'll be crated for much of the time, especially at first, so that he doesn't cause any additional trauma to the surgery site? Won't he be on severe restriction for most of the time



I would not leave them alone with just gates to separate, I meant for when I am home, so that they can still be in "amongst the action" of the house, and not feel isolated to a far room where nobody spends any time. I am planning on getting the "walk through" type gates that wall mount. I trust them a lot more than the pressure mounted type. I have found a few that are pretty high, and, as I mentioned before, at *this* point, I think that will work fine. I know that the game plan may have to be amended as time goes on. They are all boundary trained to respect baby gates, I have a room where I keep my reptiles and sugar gliders, and the dogs aren't typically allowed in there.

As far as Genghis' recovery, ordinarily, he would be on a dog bed in the living room most of the time, and I would move the bed into my room at night. It's just going to take a bit more work on my part this time around, making sure that everyone is separated.
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Postby mnp13 » October 9th, 2009, 1:54 am

pitbullgirl42 wrote:When nobody is home, Cash is closed in the sunroom, with no access to the yard. Genghis and Mina are never really left unsupervised outside because I KNOW that Genghis could go over the fence if he really had motivation to do so. We had a really ballsy squirrel this summer that ran along the top of the fence for a short period of time before Genghis finally nabbed him.

Gotcha. That wasn't clear from your wording.

As for the squirrel, I'm quite convinced that stuff like that is gang initiation. lol

As far as Genghis' recovery, ordinarily, he would be on a dog bed in the living room most of the time, and I would move the bed into my room at night. It's just going to take a bit more work on my part this time around, making sure that everyone is separated.

Maybe put him in a large wire create? Then it's a little more open, but there's no danger of them getting together.
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