furever_pit wrote:I would be interested in speaking to some of these breeders who are breeding out the DA in APBTs. Just because I am curious.
Would they choose not to breed Dog A simply because he is DA, even tho he has performed better in WP, conformation, agility, or sport work (all of which demonstrate that the DA is controllable and not something that is impossible to manage)? Would they instead breed Dog B because he has not demonstrated any DA even tho he has not performed as well as Dog A? What kind of priority is the lack of DA taking in the breeding program?
Excellent questions. Many dog aggressive dogs perform perfectly well in conformation, obedience, agility and other venues - even when competition requires that they be in close proximity to other dogs. When Connor and Riggs are "working" they can be within inches of each other, off leash, with us at a distance. They don't move. When not in working mode, Riggs isn't quite as well behaved.
Dog aggressive dogs also may be fine with one or two other dogs on a limited and/or supervised basis. They just may not be able to wildly
play together - as in you can't let them get into "high drive" but low key play is ok.
To me, there is one simple fact
here. The "need" for dogs to have "friends" is a need that is created and put on them by people
Yes, domestic dogs are social
creatures. Do I believe that they are "pack animals"? not necessarily. The key here is domestic
. Humans created breeds, and when we created breeds, we refined instincts to suit the needs and desires that we had for that particular breed. There is a reason that you don't see Greyhounds doing dock diving - they are fast and they can leap, but they don't have much interest in retrieving
, because that is something that humans
didn't add into their breed.
So, the dogs that still like "packs" are the ones that humans wanted
to still like packs. Hunting hounds are a good example of them - they live and work together in large groups and even when they are in high drive they don't get into trouble with one another (ideally.)
Livestock guardian dogs like the Central Asian Shepherd are sometimes put out with their flock of sheep at a young age so that they bond with the sheep
and not with people. The sheep become their social group, not people, not other dogs - and they protect those sheep against predators, human and animal.
I absolutely agree that all dogs - even dog aggressive dogs - need social interaction. However, that interaction can come from people. Like Matt posted, there are many non
-dog aggressive dogs who prefer to be left alone by other dogs.
As far as dogs that can jump baby gates then they're put 2 high and then they get a crash course in respecting the gate (and/or the door is shut) and generally with in 2 days they don't challenge the gate and are happy to wait much like your crating but on a larger scale.
Do a quick search on Google and/or a few dog forums and you'll find pictures of what dogs can and will do to walls when they want to get out of rooms when the door is closed.
We have a 4 foot gate that we can use at the front door with supervision, but would not use it as a separation method for the boys because even though Riggs isn't a "jumper," he'd still figure out how to get over it. Connor could go over it no problem, but though he'd happily tangle with Riggs, it's Riggs who's spoiling for the fight not him.
The fundamental nature of breeds were changed several times before perfection was achieved and a standard was written. Who's to say that there isn't room for improvement even now esp. if it is to benifit the dog to live more peaceably in such a negative society. I'm not talking about adding to the foundation stock to alter the breed entirely. I'm talking abut selective breeding of dogs that are known to be less DA (or not at all) yet still retaine all the other qualities of the breed we adore.
"Improvement"? According to who? I don't care about dog aggression. It's a non-issue to me. Ruby isn't
dog aggressive, and I don't bring her to dog parks, doggie day care, socialization classes, or anything else. Riggs is dog aggressive, and I actually do more with him than I do with Ruby because he's a much higher drive dog overall and so is a lot easier to work. I manage his dog aggression through obedience, it's not a big deal.
Part of owning a Pit Bull is possibly dealing with dog aggression. Don't like it? Don't get a Pit Bull. There are quite literally hundreds
of breeds of dogs in the world, there must be another one out there for people who don't like dog aggressive ones. I am just bewildered by people who decided they must "improve" the ones that aren't messed up in the first place.
I admire that you would be willing to go to any lengths to keep all your dogs no matter what the circumstances but where do you draw the line and askyourself am I really doing this for their best interest or my selfishness. Sometimes the greatest gift you can give is letting something go
And of course, the reverse is also true - how easy is it to just dump the dog because they aren't getting along instead of coming up with a plan to manage them and altering your lifestyle to fit?
I think the problem lies a lot in the feeling that you aren't stating opinions or experiences, but telling people THIS WHAT HAPPENED. The trouble is, on the internet...and even hearing a story first hand IRL, you were NOT there.
The funny thing is, even when you (general you) are
there, you don't always know what happened. Yes, I know that sounds weird, but bear with me. Go watch the video of Riggs and Inara and then read the comments, many people watched it and said that it looked to them like Riggs just wanted to play. Those same people could have been standing in a park watching and said "He just snapped and attacked her!" (ok, not people from here, but maybe someone from the public.)
Read this post: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=30107&p=341256&#p341256
Of course, I wasn't there, but even from the story they told me, there was obviously 100 different cues that there was a major problem. But the people didn't see it. That dog was doing everything but renting a billboard to tell them that he needed their help, but they didn't see it.
I'm teaching a brats class right now, and part of getting into the class was me evaluating the dog. Part of the evaluation was letting me handle the dog so I can experience the problems first hand. I can't go by the problems as they explain them to me, I have to see them. I had an oh-so-fun evaluation last summer with the Spaniel that bites if you reach over his head... um... at some point I had to reach over his head. Yeah. He bites. That was fun.