Temperament and Protection Dogs

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Postby maberi » September 18th, 2009, 9:35 am

Excuse my ignorance, but what is a tactical liftoff/tactical out?
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Postby mnp13 » September 18th, 2009, 9:37 am

maberi wrote:Excuse my ignorance, but what is a tactical liftoff/tactical out?


removing the dog from the bite manually instead of verbally.
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Postby katiek0417 » September 18th, 2009, 9:47 am

I took this from a different board, but it was written by Greg, and I think it's a very good explanation of drives and what some people consider nervy (please note, I took out some of the names that were listed):

Re: Up for debate... What makes a dog breeding quality
Postby Greg Williams » Wed Jul 29, 2009 3:18 pm

I was involved in a big debate on this subject a few years back on a different board with another person. When this came up, I went to the two people I knew best and know/knew there stuff when it comes to training a dog and dog behavior. They were/are Joe Morris and Jerry Bradshaw.
Fight drive was explained to me as a drive that is developed through channeling (switching back and fourth) both prey and defense drives as XXXX stated.
I do not believe that a defensive dog will be run off the grip with a change of the rules. A defensive dogs bite may not be pretty, but if the dog is run off he's either very young or nervy. At least this has been my experience as I have worked both high prey motivated dogs and highly defensive dogs and have seen both stay and engage and have seen both head for the hills.
Defense is a mechanism of fear when talking about fight or flight. As these two are mechanisms of defense, but different in meaning. Defense by definition means 1. The act of defending against attack, danger, or injury. 2. A means or method of defending or protecting.
Flight by definition means: The act or an instance of running away; an escape.
By definition a defense motivated dog is not always a nervy or fearful dog. Some dogs work better in defense, some in prey. As dog trainers it is our responsibility to know our dogs and what drives are best suited to work our dogs in.
I also don't believe a dog who growls in the grip is always a nerve issue as I have seen through the years a number of dogs growl in the grip and highly doubt these dogs were nervy. I think (as XXXX said) you have to look at the whole picture.... the dogs entire body language. While growling is he driving in? Pulling away? If more pressure is applied does the dogs growling get louder? Does he back out of the grip? Or is the dog biting harder? Does the dog seem nervous in the grip during the drive? Or does he seem happy? Wagging tail?
I do agree with XXXX that character helps the make up of a dog. What I mean is, and as I said earlier If a dog is nervy he's nervy no matter what drive he's being worked in. If he's strong and confident then he will remain that way no matter what drive he's worked in.
These are my opinions based on my experiences.
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Postby DemoDick » September 18th, 2009, 10:16 am

katiek0417 wrote:Demo, the reason I trained him to do it is b/c I've seen decoys screw up in trials. The dog bites when it's not supposed to, and decoy (out of habit) starts driving the dog, anyway (a perfect example is in the PSA level 2 call-off - if the dog bites or anticipates and takes the return bite, the decoy starts working the dog, which is a reward for the dog)...so, I trained Cy to out off a fighting decoy because of that very reason - we do sport as well...and decoys screw up...and I don't want him to have the reward of remaining in a drive when he wasn't supposed to bite to begin with...

You're right, out means out...but I can think of just as many reasons why you wouldn't want your dog to out off of someone who is fighting it.


Of course. But the decision to out is ultimately up to the handler, not the dog, and that command is given based on the situation.

The dog should remain in the bite until he is commanded to out, no matter what the decoy is doing (passive, active, etc.). However, once that command is given, the dog should out and wait for a new command. That's up to the handler, not the dog. I don't like an automatic out, and I won't teach an out that requires a decoy stand perfectly still, especially if the dog is being trained for practical application. Bite means bite and out means out, no matter what.
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Postby DemoDick » September 18th, 2009, 10:20 am

Malli wrote:I would think in the case of the police dog that they might prefer a dog that was less likely to stop biting? Like they'd rather not have a nice out and haul the dog off and ensure instead the dog will bite and hold? :| Correct me if I'm wrong...


I think that depends a lot more on the political environment of the jurisdiction in question than the actual needs of the handler.
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Postby katiek0417 » September 18th, 2009, 10:56 am

DemoDick wrote:
katiek0417 wrote:Demo, the reason I trained him to do it is b/c I've seen decoys screw up in trials. The dog bites when it's not supposed to, and decoy (out of habit) starts driving the dog, anyway (a perfect example is in the PSA level 2 call-off - if the dog bites or anticipates and takes the return bite, the decoy starts working the dog, which is a reward for the dog)...so, I trained Cy to out off a fighting decoy because of that very reason - we do sport as well...and decoys screw up...and I don't want him to have the reward of remaining in a drive when he wasn't supposed to bite to begin with...

You're right, out means out...but I can think of just as many reasons why you wouldn't want your dog to out off of someone who is fighting it.


Of course. But the decision to out is ultimately up to the handler, not the dog, and that command is given based on the situation.

The dog should remain in the bite until he is commanded to out, no matter what the decoy is doing (passive, active, etc.). However, once that command is given, the dog should out and wait for a new command. That's up to the handler, not the dog. I don't like an automatic out, and I won't teach an out that requires a decoy stand perfectly still, especially if the dog is being trained for practical application. Bite means bite and out means out, no matter what.



Okay, so, in reality, we were talking about different things....I wouldn't choose to out on a moving decoy unless I was instructed to do so or was forced to (both in trial situations if a steward tells me to out my dog, or if a decoy screws up and I don't want my dog rewarded for biting when he shouldn't)....

Automatic outs are, in my opinion, different from commanded outs....
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Postby DemoDick » September 18th, 2009, 11:36 am

katiek0417 wrote:Okay, so, in reality, we were talking about different things....I wouldn't choose to out on a moving decoy unless I was instructed to do so or was forced to (both in trial situations if a steward tells me to out my dog, or if a decoy screws up and I don't want my dog rewarded for biting when he shouldn't)....


Why wouldn't you choose to out the dog from a moving decoy in a training scenario? Regardless of why or when the out command is delivered, the dog must let go. This is important not only for trials, but for real situations as well. If you're not training the dog to out off of an active decoy, you can't expect him to do so when commanded. When the steward tells you to out your dog and the decoy is fighting, but the dog has never been asked to out in that situation, how can he be expected to perform? This is why I choose to teach the dog to out from an active decoy. Out means out. I simply can't see a problem with teaching the dog to out every time, regardless of the decoy's actions. In fact, I have an advantage in that my dog WILL out with a verbal command on an active decoy specifically because we actively practice it.

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Postby mnp13 » September 18th, 2009, 11:45 am

To get back on topic...

I don't think the original point of the thread was automatic outs vs. directed outs - though that's certianly a valid topic (no, I don't think the thread should be split)

I think what the OP was asking was what the ideal temperament of a protection/bitework dog is. The question of if a dog bites someone if it will let go if that person is holding still is definitely valid, as an unintentional bite is a possibility with any dog and the odds of a person holding completely still with a dog hanging off of them is rather slim. And outside of active movement, noise is another factor.
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Postby Malli » September 18th, 2009, 12:44 pm

maberi wrote:Excuse my ignorance, but what is a tactical liftoff/tactical out?


thank you I was wondering the same :)
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Postby Malli » September 18th, 2009, 12:54 pm

mnp13 wrote:To get back on topic...

I don't think the original point of the thread was automatic outs vs. directed outs - though that's certianly a valid topic (no, I don't think the thread should be split)

I think what the OP was asking was what the ideal temperament of a protection/bitework dog is. The question of if a dog bites someone if it will let go if that person is holding still is definitely valid, as an unintentional bite is a possibility with any dog and the odds of a person holding completely still with a dog hanging off of them is rather slim. And outside of active movement, noise is another factor.


Would we agree that the stability and temperment of the dog seems to be dependant on the department and the region?
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Postby mnp13 » September 18th, 2009, 12:56 pm

Malli wrote:Would we agree that the stability and temperment of the dog seems to be dependant on the department and the region?


I may be wrong, but I think this pertains to any dogs that are taught to bite - outside of military dogs.
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Postby katiek0417 » September 18th, 2009, 12:57 pm

DemoDick wrote:
katiek0417 wrote:Okay, so, in reality, we were talking about different things....I wouldn't choose to out on a moving decoy unless I was instructed to do so or was forced to (both in trial situations if a steward tells me to out my dog, or if a decoy screws up and I don't want my dog rewarded for biting when he shouldn't)....


Why wouldn't you choose to out the dog from a moving decoy in a training scenario? Regardless of why or when the out command is delivered, the dog must let go. This is important not only for trials, but for real situations as well. If you're not training the dog to out off of an active decoy, you can't expect him to do so when commanded. When the steward tells you to out your dog and the decoy is fighting, but the dog has never been asked to out in that situation, how can he be expected to perform? This is why I choose to teach the dog to out from an active decoy. Out means out. I simply can't see a problem with teaching the dog to out every time, regardless of the decoy's actions. In fact, I have an advantage in that my dog WILL out with a verbal command on an active decoy specifically because we actively practice it.

Demo Dick



Did you not read where I said it was something I had trained my dog to do? Really? You even quote it in one of your posts!!!!

Demo, the reason I trained him to do it is b/c I've seen decoys screw up in trials. The dog bites when it's not supposed to, and decoy (out of habit) starts driving the dog, anyway (a perfect example is in the PSA level 2 call-off - if the dog bites or anticipates and takes the return bite, the decoy starts working the dog, which is a reward for the dog)...so, I trained Cy to out off a fighting decoy because of that very reason - we do sport as well...and decoys screw up...and I don't want him to have the reward of remaining in a drive when he wasn't supposed to bite to begin with...


That being said, Cy is a dog that thinks too much (there are alot of mals that do that)...I spent a very long time fixing a lot of things...so I show him things, but I don't work them at every session. Why? Because he starts to do things pre-emptively ALOT...my training directors have, therefore, decided that I should teach Cy things, but not work them ad nauseum with him!
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Postby Malli » September 18th, 2009, 1:01 pm

Yeah...

and to further add to the answer,

In my OPINION the dog SHOULD be able to just turn off, as I have seen (with a few local police dogs) and some have described. I think it should take a special dog to do protection work, not only to have the right drive and intensity but also to have the temperment to know when and when not to use his or her abilities.
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Postby DemoDick » September 18th, 2009, 1:20 pm

Katrina,
You are being extremely unclear in what you are writing. We were discussing the merits of teaching practical biting dogs to out on an active decoy, and you wrote this (I'm re-quoting you, again):

My only problem with that is why would I want my dog to out on someone still fighting it? In the real world, if my dog outs on a person fighting it, then that person could get the upper hand....why in God's name would I EVER want my PERSONAL PROTECTION dog to lose the upper hand in a fight??? (That's JMO, but I just spoke to Greg, and he agreed with me)...


This would indicate that you are not interested in teaching the dog to out off of an active, struggling person during a live bite. You were pretty emphatic about that with the capitalization and extra question marks. Then later, you wrote this (another re-quote):

Trust me, Cy will out off a fighting decoy. I trained him to do it...but I trained him to do it more for the control aspect...it's not something I work often...


You contradicted yourself. So I'm not sure what I or anyone else is supposed to take away from that, as you didn't really clarify what you meant. I can't be the only one who doesn't understand what you're trying to get across.

Demo Dick
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Postby DemoDick » September 18th, 2009, 1:25 pm

mnp13 wrote:
Malli wrote:Would we agree that the stability and temperment of the dog seems to be dependant on the department and the region?


I may be wrong, but I think this pertains to any dogs that are taught to bite - outside of military dogs.


I agree with this. Patrol dogs should not have a "perimeter dog" mentality as they regularly have to interact with other officers, the public, etc. Bitework dogs should be safe and stable and able to do normal dog things like hang out with friends and family.

Demo Dick
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Postby katiek0417 » September 18th, 2009, 2:03 pm

DemoDick wrote:Katrina,
You are being extremely unclear in what you are writing. We were discussing the merits of teaching practical biting dogs to out on an active decoy, and you wrote this (I'm re-quoting you, again):

My only problem with that is why would I want my dog to out on someone still fighting it? In the real world, if my dog outs on a person fighting it, then that person could get the upper hand....why in God's name would I EVER want my PERSONAL PROTECTION dog to lose the upper hand in a fight??? (That's JMO, but I just spoke to Greg, and he agreed with me)...


This would indicate that you are not interested in teaching the dog to out off of an active, struggling person during a live bite. You were pretty emphatic about that with the capitalization and extra question marks. Then later, you wrote this (another re-quote):

Trust me, Cy will out off a fighting decoy. I trained him to do it...but I trained him to do it more for the control aspect...it's not something I work often...


You contradicted yourself. So I'm not sure what I or anyone else is supposed to take away from that, as you didn't really clarify what you meant. I can't be the only one who doesn't understand what you're trying to get across.

Demo Dick


Demo, for PP, I have no desire to teach it...but being that I do sport with my dogs I have to teach it...make sense? No, I don't work it often. I taught it b/c I had to b/c I do sport with my dogs.

And I do think I make the distinction that I wouldn't do it for PP, but I do sport with Cy, as well. And the training does not always, as I would hope you know, overlap for the two.
"Rumor has it, compulsion is evil."

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Postby katiek0417 » September 18th, 2009, 2:13 pm

Oh, and that's going to be my last post on the that topic, I know the admins are trying to get this back on topic! I'll be good now!
"Rumor has it, compulsion is evil."

Katrina
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Nisha CGC, PDC, PSA TC, PSA 1 - Crazy Malinois
Drusilla SLUT- Pet
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Postby DemoDick » September 18th, 2009, 2:32 pm

katiek0417 wrote:Demo, for PP, I have no desire to teach it...but being that I do sport with my dogs I have to teach it...make sense? No, I don't work it often. I taught it b/c I had to b/c I do sport with my dogs.


Ok, I understand what you mean now. However, I disagree on your line of thinking. What if you need your deployed dog to drop off of a live bite to protect you from a second attacker in a real scenario? Criminal predators usually work in teams, as there are strength in numbers. Most of the robberies and assaults I investigate involve multiple assailants. What if the dog takes a bite on the wrong person who then panics and struggles? Accidents happen. As already mentioned, it's unlikely that anyone is going to either become or remain perfectly still (like a training decoy) with a dog attached to them. Pain hurts. That's why I consider an unconflicted and absolute out an essential skill for a PP dog, as well as a sport dog. Control is control, and if he dog really understands what "out" means, it's up to the handler to steer the dog appropriately for the situation.

And I do think I make the distinction that I wouldn't do it for PP, but I do sport with Cy, as well. And the training does not always, as I would hope you know, overlap for the two.


That wasn't clear, and that was why I was confused. Thank you for clarifying. I don't do any sport with my PP dog any more. You're preaching to the choir on the difference between the two.
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Postby katiek0417 » September 18th, 2009, 2:44 pm

DemoDick wrote:
katiek0417 wrote:Demo, for PP, I have no desire to teach it...but being that I do sport with my dogs I have to teach it...make sense? No, I don't work it often. I taught it b/c I had to b/c I do sport with my dogs.


Ok, I understand what you mean now. However, I disagree on your line of thinking. What if you need your deployed dog to drop off of a live bite to protect you from a second attacker in a real scenario? Criminal predators usually work in teams, as there are strength in numbers. Most of the robberies and assaults I investigate involve multiple assailants. What if the dog takes a bite on the wrong person who then panics and struggles? Accidents happen. As already mentioned, it's unlikely that anyone is going to either become or remain perfectly still (like a training decoy) with a dog attached to them. Pain hurts. That's why I consider an unconflicted and absolute out an essential skill for a PP dog, as well as a sport dog. Control is control, and if he dog really understands what "out" means, it's up to the handler to steer the dog appropriately for the situation.


I actually use a separate command...I don't tell him to out, per se (I just mean I don't use his regular out command). I work these as redirected attacks...both from a distance (as a directional) as well as coming back to me...however, I use a different command so that Cy knows what to expect - this is something that I've found to be very helpful with him b/c he DOES think so much....

See, to Cy, "ot" means to out and drop into a guard...but I only say "ot " (no guard command). If I say his name, then he knows to drop off and look at me and get further instructions, if it's followed by "au pied attaque" it means come back and bite, if it's followed by just "attaque" it means it's a directional and he shouldn't come all the way back to me...and, finally, if it's followed by "au pied" only, then it means come to heel (even if there's a decoy next to me).

I know it seems like a lot, but like I said, I have a dog whose training wasn't so streamlined to begin with, so I've had to combat alot...and, unfortunately, the different commands just helps us...

So, I agree that in a case like that it's useful for a dog to out on a moving decoy...I just train it differently....
"Rumor has it, compulsion is evil."

Katrina
Sacha CGC - Dumb Lab
Nisha CGC, PDC, PSA TC, PSA 1 - Crazy Malinois
Drusilla SLUT- Pet
Nemo - Dual-Purpose Narcotics
Cy TC, PSA 1, PSA 2, 2009 PSA Level 3 National Champion
Axo - Psycho Puppy
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Postby DemoDick » September 18th, 2009, 3:06 pm

That's too much to remember. When I need him to drop off bad guy #1 and help me deal with bad guy #2, I just scream "help!" That's what I'll do in during an attack anyway.
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