Interdog Aggression-warning signs...

[DemoDick]

So no one here has managed to get their dogs to ignore each other when near each other...dogs that would otherwise eat each other?

Strawman argument. Not even going to bother replying.

And if the article were to say...all these things are true EXCEPT for pit bulls...no one would have flown off the handle about pit bulls being singled out?

No, we would have appreciated the distinction. I really don't think you grasp the uniqueness of this breed as well as you think you do. These ain't foo-foo dogs. They are FIGHTERS. And that's not a bad thing.

Just because this is a PIT BULL board, we are not able to discuss other breeds and training of said breeds? I brought up different breeds because someone said that they don't think multiple dogs should be loose together, and I mentioned that it might be the case with pit bulls, but some other breeds don't have the same issues. So we can ONLY talk about pit bulls and what is true and right for this breed? Heavens that we would broaden the discussion to include other types of dogs.

Knock off the sarcasm. You know EXACTLY what I was getting at. NOTHING in either article approached dog aggression from the perspective of a Pit Bull, nor did anything in EITHER article indicate good, sound management strategies for Pit Bulls. And because this is a PIT BULL board that comes up in search engines, people come here looking for advice. When they see an article (without ANY references, BTW) stickied at the very top of the "Training & Behavior" section, do you think they are going to say to themselves "I bet that article DOESN'T apply to my Pit Bull?!?"

This is just common sense.

Demo Dick

[amazincc]

Have to disagree w/you, Demo... the one thing I didn't take this article for was a "teaching tool", per se.

I took it more like a "see-what-can-happen-when-DOGS-are-unsupervised-while-people-are-clueless/careless" kinda thing. The whole situation that was described REEKED of it.
Common sense should include/protect ALL breeds/pets... just because everyone happily gets along on my porch while I'm there doesn't mean I'll throw dogs and cats in a room together while I go shopping. That would be stupid... as stupid a letting a snarky Corgi "work it out" w/the rest of his pack. As stupid as NOT doing crate/rotate when you have muliple dogs who clearly don't get along.

Yes, Pits are a unique breed of dog and require different management techniques at times... but they are still dogs, first and foremost.

So, now slap a disclaimer on that Sticky...

[TheRedQueen]

Eh...I'm feeling sarcastic tonight...hit that ignore button.

No, we would have appreciated the distinction. I really don't think you grasp the uniqueness of this breed as well as you think you do. These ain't foo-foo dogs. They are FIGHTERS. And that's not a bad thing.

I never claimed to be a pit bull expert...I think if you read over my posts while here, I have never stepped in to offer pit bull advice. Training advice, yes. Pit bull advice, no.

You know EXACTLY what I was getting at. NOTHING in either article approached dog aggression from the perspective of a Pit Bull, nor did anything in EITHER article indicate good, sound management strategies for Pit Bulls. And because this is a PIT BULL board that comes up in search engines, people come here looking for advice. When they see an article (without ANY references, BTW) stickied at the very top of the "Training & Behavior" section, do you think they are going to say to themselves "I bet that article DOESN'T apply to my Pit Bull?!?"

I posted the article as I found it an interesting read on a really bad situation...where dog-dog aggression could have easily been avoided if the owner was paying attention. And these were NOT pit bulls...with all of the bad pit bull press, I liked that the dogs involved were not bullies at all. I didn't post the article to be a lesson on what to do with pit bull vs. pit bulls, but merely as an interesting read. I didn't expect it to be a sticky...I just thought it might get some discussion going.

[Marinepits]

Have to disagree w/you, Demo... the one thing I didn't take this article for was a "teaching tool", per se.

I took it more like a "see-what-can-happen-when-DOGS-are-unsupervised-while-people-are-clueless/careless" kinda thing. The whole situation that was described REEKED of it.
Common sense should include/protect ALL breeds/pets... just because everyone happily gets along on my porch while I'm there doesn't mean I'll throw dogs and cats in a room together while I go shopping. That would be stupid... as stupid a letting a snarky Corgi "work it out" w/the rest of his pack. As stupid as NOT doing crate/rotate when you have muliple dogs who clearly don't get along.

Yes, Pits are a unique breed of dog and require different management techniques at times... but they are still dogs, first and foremost.

I agree.

I posted the article as I found it an interesting read on a really bad situation...where dog-dog aggression could have easily been avoided if the owner was paying attention. And these were NOT pit bulls...with all of the bad pit bull press, I liked that the dogs involved were not bullies at all. I didn't post the article to be a lesson on what to do with pit bull vs. pit bulls, but merely as an interesting read.

And, I agree.

I didn't expect it to be a sticky...I just thought it might get some discussion going.

And that’s exactly why I “stickied” it – to get some discussion going. Stickies aren’t always used to imply endorsement of any particular thread. Sometimes they’re just used to grab attention.

[DemoDick]

Have to disagree w/you, Demo... the one thing I didn't take this article for was a "teaching tool", per se.

I took it more like a "see-what-can-happen-when-DOGS-are-unsupervised-while-people-are-clueless/careless" kinda thing. The whole situation that was described REEKED of it.
Common sense should include/protect ALL breeds/pets... just because everyone happily gets along on my porch while I'm there doesn't mean I'll throw dogs and cats in a room together while I go shopping. That would be stupid... as stupid a letting a snarky Corgi "work it out" w/the rest of his pack. As stupid as NOT doing crate/rotate when you have muliple dogs who clearly don't get along.

Yes, Pits are a unique breed of dog and require different management techniques at times... but they are still dogs, first and foremost.

So, now slap a disclaimer on that Sticky...

You're missing my point. You are not the hypothetical person at the bottom of the learning curve that I am talking about. You are not the person who just recently came here looking for advice. You have a little bit of experience in the breed and can see the article for what it is.

Now, think back to the point at which you began really researching behavior modification. What if you had a dog-aggressive Pit Bull and you came here looking for advice, like many, many people do, and found those two articles are at the top of the page? Let's not forget that there are lurkers who don't post but read the information posted and try to apply it in their own households.

See what I'm getting at? A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

Demo Dick

[TheRedQueen]

Well, I think this is just silly.

If someone comes here looking for advice on two pet pit bulls that are having aggression issues, I would certainly hope that they don't read one sticky and then leave thinking it's all good. If that were truly the case, then they've got more problems than just dog fights in their house.

[maberi]

Interesting debate and I felt the article had some good points, but as Demo pointed out, much of it doesn't apply to pit bulls (at least in my view).

Many of the books and articles I read fail to make note of the exception breeds when it comes to dog on dog aggression, but when the author does bring the topic up, it gives me a little more faith in what I am reading as it points out the author is somewhat well rounded and doesn't have tunnel vision on dog behavior based on some of the more common breeds out there (which is the norm in most of the literature you read).

Heidi received a call from a friend yesterday. Her friend had two pit bulls and after returning from vacation the female attacked the male out of "no where". The female was taken to the vet and left there as she wouldn't allow her back in the house. They contacted us to see if we knew of a rescue that would take the dog in. I didn't have the opportunity to speak with her, but Heidi encouraged her to join the forum (I've kept my eye out but unfortunately it doesn't look like she has yet). This story is all to common for us, and unfortunately because of the lack of knowledge of the breed by owners and trainers out there, it is the dogs that suffer (as a breed and as an individual dog).

When it comes to aggression, behavior modification in general is such a complex and time consuming thing for even the experienced trainer, much less someone with little to no background in dog behavior or training. Couple that with hundreds of years of dog aggression, drive and determination intentionally bred into a dog and you have a disaster waiting to happen when the casual owner or trainer tries to employ some of the techniques described.

Now in saying all of that can you train your dogs to tolerate others around them that they dislike? Of course, look at Riggs and Connor. Demo and Michelle have those two lunkheads trained well enough that they can be around each other if need be without tearing each other to shreds, but luckily for Connor and Riggs they are kept in a crate and rotate environment where the chances of an accident happening are almost non existent.

Like Erin points out there really is no one answer fits all for all dogs. Unfortunately for many novices they try to employ the first thing they hear and when that fails they throw up their hands and assume the dog is a rotten apple

[TheRedQueen]

Like Erin points out there really is no one answer fits all for all dogs. Unfortunately for many novices they try to employ the first thing they hear and when that fails they throw up their hands and assume the dog is a rotten apple

I think that's the case with many dogs, regardless of breed. I have many first time meetings with clients that never evolve into second visits, because I don't offer the quick fix that they are looking for with their dog that is biting/running off/barking/etc. When I can't make their 6 year old cocker spaniel the perfect Disney dog with a snap of my fingers.

One article posted on a pit bull forum will not make or break things...if someone is that lazy/stupid/ignorant/whatever to read that one article-which is not even a "HOW TO" article...without reading all of the rest of the discussion...what are we supposed to do about it... I don't want to have to put a disclaimer on everything I post..."MAY NOT BE SUITABLE FOR PIT BULLS". I think it's a bit of buyer beware...you've got to get more info...dig deeper. I mean, I'm assuming that other adults are reading these articles/posts...and I'm not in the habit of enforcing what other people read or do.

[amazincc]

Have to disagree w/you, Demo... the one thing I didn't take this article for was a "teaching tool", per se.

I took it more like a "see-what-can-happen-when-DOGS-are-unsupervised-while-people-are-clueless/careless" kinda thing. The whole situation that was described REEKED of it.
Common sense should include/protect ALL breeds/pets... just because everyone happily gets along on my porch while I'm there doesn't mean I'll throw dogs and cats in a room together while I go shopping. That would be stupid... as stupid a letting a snarky Corgi "work it out" w/the rest of his pack. As stupid as NOT doing crate/rotate when you have muliple dogs who clearly don't get along.

Yes, Pits are a unique breed of dog and require different management techniques at times... but they are still dogs, first and foremost.

So, now slap a disclaimer on that Sticky...

You're missing my point. You are not the hypothetical person at the bottom of the learning curve that I am talking about. You are not the person who just recently came here looking for advice. You have a little bit of experience in the breed and can see the article for what it is.

Now, think back to the point at which you began really researching behavior modification. What if you had a dog-aggressive Pit Bull and you came here looking for advice, like many, many people do, and found those two articles are at the top of the page? Let's not forget that there are lurkers who don't post but read the information posted and try to apply it in their own households.

See what I'm getting at? A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

Demo Dick

And you are missing MY point (w/all due respect, of course)...
I used to be that hypothetical person underneath the bottom of the learning curve... remember???
I didn't even know to to put on a choke chain correctly... and that was the least of my problems.
Not to mention that I had a fear-aggressive (HA) Pit Bull who wasn't above BITING a person (and had done so in the past). It doesn't get any worse than that.
Couple that w/being a faithful watcher/follower of CM's show for years... well, Mick and I were a disaster waiting to happen.
However... then I joined PBT, and started reading, and reading, and reading. When something wasn't clear to me - I asked questions, ad nauseum.
I agreed w/some people... others, not so much. I also implemented some techniques that I would've never considered in the past, and - God knows - I've changed my beliefs and opinions about a dozen other things.
IF I had a dog-aggressive Pit Bull and I came here looking for advice as well as wanting to do some serious research on behavior modification... AND I then came across the articles in the sticky... I wouldn't take it as gospel. I would think it was an interesting read, and then I would ask the people who actually OWN a PIT BULL how to correct/remedy/modify my situation.
I guess, to me, common sense would dictate that.

[DemoDick]

Christine, you're still not understanding where I'm coming from. Even when you first showed up here, you were ALREADY ahead of most beginners, because you were able to VERY rapdily assimilate the good info available and put it to use.

I guess, to me, common sense would dictate that.

And how many people do you encounter daily who can actually utilize common sense?

That's why information like the stuff in this post needs to be presented with the lowest common denominator in mind. People WILL take information that they think they understand, run with it, and get themselves into much more trouble than they otherwise would.

Demo Dick

[BigDogBuford]

I thought it was an interesting read. Some stuff I agreed with and some stuff I didn't but the norm for me. Personally I couldn't care less if it wasn't involving Pit Bulls. It's still an opportunity to learn something and if I can learn even *one* thing or glean *one* useful piece of knowledge from someone's huge mistake then all the better. I figure the more I know about dog aggression (no matter the breed) the more I can take that knowledge and use it in a purposeful fashion.

[hugapitbull]

I get Demo's point. His concern is for the 'casual' owner who has a problem or a developing problem and really isn't interested in the ongoing learning and research of the breed we are all dedicated to. In their search for a quick fix they may learn just enough to get themselves and their dogs into serious trouble.

Most of us are here because you never know which post will give you a new perspective on something you thought you already knew. The ongoing opportunity to grow in our ideas and beliefs keeps us coming back and keeps us engaged. We tend to not remember there are those who pick and choose what advice they 'need' based on a subject description, and maybe even if the 'board' considered it important enough to sticky. They may or may not ever become a member, join in a discussion, or ask for opinions.

I, like most of you, have chosen to make breed behavior and research an ongoing part of my life for the betterment of myself, my dogs, and others I can influence in a positive way. And most of you know, with the addition of Duke to the household, I have been introduced to a whole new level of research and learning. Unfortunately, we are not the majority of the breed owners.

I thought the articles were a great read and appreciate that they were posted and that they have generated the discussion they have.

[TheRedQueen]

Trust me...I understand Demo's point...and those of everyone else who chimed in in favor of his opinions.

I just don't agree that we need to make sure that everything we post is okay for viewing by the *unwashed ignorant masses* that everyone seems to think browse on PBT. Does everything have to have a disclaimer on it...JUST IN CASE some person with no training/pit bull experience happens upon it? Really?

There is a lot of information to be had on the internet...people can google dog-dog aggression and get numerous links to check out...hey, they can probably find this article on the original site that I found it. *gasp* Maybe we should have that site put up a warning too...in case an idiot with an untrained pit bull finds it over there too!

See the thing is...I don't see this article as being a "quick fix" article anyway. I read it as a case study with some ideas on how to work on dog-dog aggression stuck in there for good measure. I see it as what it is...an article covering one woman's problems with multiple dogs that led to tragedy. An article talking about the warning signs of pack discontent. I don't see a long article on exactly how to fix it...as I said, it's not a HOW TO article. I just don't see why so many are up in arms about this...and why others are jumping on the idea that poor ignorant pit bull owners might go out and do harm by reading this article. Really? That's a big concern for you all?

[BigDogBuford]

Trust me...I understand Demo's point...and those of everyone else who chimed in in favor of his opinions.

I just don't agree that we need to make sure that everything we post is okay for viewing by the *unwashed ignorant masses* that everyone seems to think browse on PBT. Does everything have to have a disclaimer on it...JUST IN CASE some person with no training/pit bull experience happens upon it? Really?

There is a lot of information to be had on the internet...people can google dog-dog aggression and get numerous links to check out...hey, they can probably find this article on the original site that I found it. *gasp* Maybe we should have that site put up a warning too...in case an idiot with an untrained pit bull finds it over there too!

See the thing is...I don't see this article as being a "quick fix" article anyway. I read it as a case study with some ideas on how to work on dog-dog aggression stuck in there for good measure. I see it as what it is...an article covering one woman's problems with multiple dogs that led to tragedy. An article talking about the warning signs of pack discontent. I don't see a long article on exactly how to fix it...as I said, it's not a HOW TO article. I just don't see why so many are up in arms about this...and why others are jumping on the idea that poor ignorant pit bull owners might go out and do harm by reading this article. Really? That's a big concern for you all?

I agree with this. With that thinking why have a board at all? ALL information can be misunderstood and misconstrued.

[DemoDick]

Jesus H. Christ.

Forget it. Post whatever you want. It's not worth my time any more.

Reading comprehension is at an all time low around here. Later.

Demo Dick

[BigDogBuford]

When I was a new bully owner I did some dumb things just from lack of experience. I post about them now because I'd hope that there's *one* person....just ONE person that might listen and learn from my mistakes. It made me feel a lot better when I finally joined a PB board to hear very experienced bully owners say they'd made dumb mistakes as well. And it made me want to stay and learn as much as I could. And I'm still learning very valuable information.

[amazincc]

Jesus H. Christ.

Forget it. Post whatever you want. It's not worth my time any more.

Reading comprehension is at an all time low around here. Later.

Demo Dick

Awww, Demo...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFwoasbsX44