Kinzyl has a new glich

[madremissy]

I have tried to look for this but not very successful on exactly what I need to do.
Kinzyl has in the past barked at people when they went to pet her. She is still wagging her tail but scares the pee out of people because she will bark out of no where.
I THOUGHT that she was trying to tell me something about the person because the only people she did this with was my POS brother-in-law and one other man who was questionable to.
I think that I have messed up somehow because now she is doing this more and more. I have her sit then the person lets her sniff her hand and then they pet. They don't get in her face or anything. She will let them pet for a second or two then put her head down look at them and bark one or two times. Each time I have made her sit again and not let them pet. Then they try again. This is not with people she knows. This is with new people. She did it at the lake to a man and then today walking down our road. She doesn't do it to all strangers either, just some.
Ok, what am I doing wrong? Am I encouraging the behavior somehow? How should people approach.
She is not going after them aggresively. It is like she is saying something??????????
REMEMBER, this was my shy, timid girl when I got her. We have worked very slowly so that she trusts. Now it seems like something is scaring her again.
Remember simple words please.

[madremissy]

Anybody

[Jenn]

So she's just randomly barking after someone pets her? AT THEM? Or just barking like wanting attention?

[madremissy]

She starts to get her head low and then lets out a bark or two at THEM. She is not lunging not growling just a loud as hell bark or two. Like she is telling them to back off or telling me that something is up. I want to know to not encourage her or not let her do it. How do I correct it. It scares people I think. She will be letting them pet her, she is all wagging and loving and then she will stop and bark at them. Like I said not everyone. Just certain people.

[Marinepits]

Katy will be all wiggle-butt and silly when people are petting her, but if they stop petting her she'll bark at them until they start petting her again. If Katy finds someone questionable, she won't let them pet her at all -- she'll deliberately move away.

Is Kinzyl still happy/excited when she lowers her head and barks? Or does her head go low, she goes still, then she barks?

[madremissy]

Katy will be all wiggle-butt and silly when people are petting her, but if they stop petting her she'll bark at them until they start petting her again. If Katy finds someone questionable, she won't let them pet her at all -- she'll deliberately move away.

Is Kinzyl still happy/excited when she lowers her head and barks? Or does her head go low, she goes still, then she barks?

That is what she does.
I make her back away and sit. Sometimes she will keep looking at the person for a moment and sometimes bark again. But then she will get interested in something else if they ignore her.

[Marinepits]

Okay, that's not so good. That's a pretty clear signal she doesn't want the attention from that particular person.

She's not cornered when this happens, is she? Does she have an "escape route" to get away from the questionable person?

[madremissy]

No, I never let her feel cornered. That scares her. That is my question? Is is the person, is it something bad she is doing, am I doing the right thing of making her sit and get her attention onto something else. Should I even be concerned or try to correct it or just know that some people spook her more than others??

BTW: so far it has been men only.

[SisMorphine]

Some dogs can be pushy if they think they CAN push someone around (which is why she may be targeting some people and not others). IF pushiness is the case, I would put a head halter on her (personally I suggest a Gentle Leader but unless fit by a professional, and you are trained in it's usage, it's useless). This way prior to her barking you have control of her head and you can divert her focus onto you. The theory is that you are showing her that you are in charge of the situation, she doesn't need to react, you make all decisions.

Now this really does depend on the dog and the situation, which is why it's always best to find a trainer in your area that can help you personally. But the longer she is allowed to successfully practice this behavior, the longer it will take to fix it.

[madremissy]

This way prior to her barking you have control of her head and you can divert her focus onto you. The theory is that you are showing her that you are in charge of the situation, she doesn't need to react, you make all decisions.

Now this really does depend on the dog and the situation, which is why it's always best to find a trainer in your area that can help you personally. But the longer she is allowed to successfully practice this behavior, the longer it will take to fix it.

So it might be her testing me further? Sis, there are no trainers around her that I would trust. NONE.

Also, we go on walks on a daily basis. We might see and talk to a stranger once a month. The guy today was a neighbor down the road who was backing out of his driveway and he decided to get out and talk for 15 minutes about nothing while his wife was sitting in the car with his 5, yes I said 5 barking miniature white dogs where jumping back and forth from the front seat to the back.
Kinzyl doesn't react to dogs in cars barking at her. The dog across the road barks at her all the time when he comes down the road.
Her other experience was at the lake 2 weeks ago when the three gentlemen were talking on the side of the road while we walked by. They started talking to her and he walked up and put his hand down. She sat and sniffed his hand but then did the barking thing. I made her sit and he kept talking to her and she barked again while sitting next to me.

I would be very leary of using the different collar. I might do more harm than good because of my non experience.

I appreciate all responses and input.

[Malli]

she sounds uncertain and afraid.

Oscar has had a similar issue except my feeling was that he was uncertain and gaurding. He will get an intense stare, head up, shoulders back, and just watch the person, and occaisionally woof. It has been particularly bad if the person spoke to him. When approached he has either, escalated and barked more and more, or if encouraged by myself to approach someone he was uncertain about, he held his head low and kept a distance while tentatively sniffing at them.

The difference between Kinzyl and Oscar is that I do not consider Oscar a fearful dog, but their behavior sounds similar. Oscar has always been outgoing and friendly with people, and up until the past 2 years, had pretty much never met a person he didn't like.

I've done a bit of work with him and that along with upping our training practice a bit has really helped, he has a better understanding that he doesn't have to be the lookout or "on gaurd", that most times Mum will take care of it (he needed a bit of a reminder, I guess )

[katiek0417]

I read your post several times, Missy, before responding so I could really think and envision what is going on.

It sounds to me that she is definitely unsure in some situations. The fact that she puts her head down and avoids eye contact could be a sign that she's trying to avoid confrontation, and the addition of the bark indicates that she's trying to scare off the person so she's not put in a position where she has to react.

You also say that this has only occurred with men...and even though Travis and Josh are around Kinzyl, I am somewhat under the impression that most of her time is spent with you, Bristol, and Munkee (even though she's young), who are all females. Most situations of being unsure are a result of simply not being exposed as much to the situation.

Is there anything about the men to whom she's shown this reaction that is common? Do they wear hats? Have moustaches? Anything weird about them like missing teeth? Limp?

Not that it really matters...however, it would be useful to know if there is one thing that seems to set her off...unfortunately, it's often very hard to pick out subtle things that are consistent between situations.

That being said, I like to, first and foremost, have people try to desensitize the dogs to the situation. IF that doesn't work, then I try to have the person use obedience to be in control of the situation.

So, let's start with Option A: desensitization. She's obviously not trying to run away, or hitting the end of the line snapping and snarling, so you can skip several steps. When a dog is unsure of something, the best thing you can do is teach the dog that it has nothing to fear in that situation. I do this using food. Can you carry a little baggie of treats with you on walks? For a while, I would do this with all men that you come across: have them feed her a couple of treats...not touch her at all...just feed some treats to her, then go on his way. I would do this for short men, tall men, men with limps, men with mustaches, etc...This way, she begins to associate men with good things...even do it for the POS and the questionable man...

If you've already tried this, and it hasn't worked, tell me, and we'll talk about Option B

[Malli]

Oscar and I did a little of option A and B

We had a few people sit sideways to him and feed him treats that he was unsure about, and I taught him a new "look in my eyes" command, so when I saw him looking uncertain I could give him that command, and then if he barked and/or looked I could tell him off in a clear cut manner, without him associating it with the person.

[katiek0417]

Oscar and I did a little of option A and B

We had a few people sit sideways to him and feed him treats that he was unsure about, and I taught him a new "look in my eyes" command, so when I saw him looking uncertain I could give him that command, and then if he barked and/or looked I could tell him off in a clear cut manner, without him associating it with the person.

Yep, I remember talking with you about these things...and I believe you have said that you have seen a difference in him, right?

[Malli]

yep

there was that little cluster of issues, and then it seemed to go away

I haven't seen look "skeptical" about anyone in person since; he is also better at the door when a stranger comes, I barely hold him back and he is quiet once I open the door. And we have been out and about and meeting all sorts. Never did figure out what makes him uneasy.

there were a few factors, I think he'd been seeing less and less of new people, he hadn't been getting his usual exercise(probably went with the less new people), and not much training either. Overall though, I think it was his "watch me" that really turned it around. Its a : "no, I'll handle it, you're not allowed to fuss, just look at me", and then if he reacts : "no, look at me". I think its clearer in the dog's mind Theres no question of what you want him to do, and no question who is being put in their place. I think it could get foggy if you gave a correction and said "no" for example, because the dog isn't looking at you, so the correction could be percieved as just discomfort and the "no" really could even be for the stranger ...That (the aforementioned one) method seems quite foggy from the dog's view, in retrospect.

[airwalk]

On the other hand, something to consider, is she only doing this with very specific people, not just something like all men or all men with hats...sometimes I think dogs have much better instincts about people than we do. She may have a handful of men she just plain doesn't like.

[madremissy]

On the other hand, something to consider, is she only doing this with very specific people, not just something like all men or all men with hats...sometimes I think dogs have much better instincts about people than we do. She may have a handful of men she just plain doesn't like.

And that is OK, right?????? I don't like all people but should I expect her to. I guess she should at least be polite. She suckers them in with her waggly butt and happy dance then she gets them petting her then barks.

Ok, well I have to say that both men in the last month have had some missing teeth. I am serious. But I don't think that is it.
One had a hat the other didn't.
Katrina, I am just going to bring treats with me everytime we walk. So in the case that we happen upon another stranger I will TELL them to not approach until I give them a treat to give her. Let's see if that will work.

[airwalk]

And that is OK, right?????? I don't like all people but should I expect her to. I guess she should at least be polite. She suckers them in with her waggly butt and happy dance then she gets them petting her then barks.

Exactly, ya know sometimes we igore the message when we really ought to pay attention. I would try the treats but also pay very close attention to how often she really does it, with whom and what's going on. These guys may be doing something that makes her nervous and this is her way of letting you know that she's not happy with them.

I've had a couple of people that Scooter just plain did not like and would not let them near me and got rather pissy when they got too close. Now in my case both were easy to see why...they were local inmates ... I'm pretty sure you aren't encountering inmates on your walks......or ...

[Hundilein]

One thing to consider since she's approaching and allowing petting and then starts barking is that she may be okay at first and then sort of suddenly realize that she's closer to a "scary person" than she wants to be. I had that problem with Hannah when we were working through her fear issues. She started to realize that people weren't so bad, and started to approach them, but then would get scared (with her it was usually when they went to pet her). She is extremely food-motivated, so if I gave the person treats, she'd approach and then stay closer than she was comfortable with because there was food, which made her freak out more. As soon as I realized that, I had her touch their hands and then I gave her treats, rather than letting them feed her. So I was rewarding her for approaching the scary people, but part of the reward was getting to move away from them (in addition to the treat I gave her). At first I did this with dog-savvy people I knew I could trust not to try to pet her when she got close because she wasn't ready for that. Now we do this with anyone we meet who wants to interact with her. We do a few hand touches first and then if she continues to approach them and seems comfortable, they are allowed to pet her under her chin or on her side (NOT on the top of her head...she hates that, as do a lot of dogs). I usually try to explain what she's going to do before she does it, but if someone holds their hand out (as people often do when they meet a new dog), she'll do touches on her own and come back to me for praise (at this point we've mostly faded treats out unless we're working with kids or particularly scary people). Being "allowed" and encouraged to move away from new people after approaching was key to her realizing that new people are not going to kill her.

It sounds like Kinzyl does okay at first, but then something sets her off. Maybe you could start calling her back to you after a few seconds, before she has the chance to get past her comfort zone.

As far as whether or not it's okay, that's sort of up to you, I think. Renee occasionally gets freaked out by a random person. I haven't been able to find a pattern, so I don't know what to desensitize her to. It happens infrequently and I don't worry about it. I just apologize to the person, tell Renee she's being silly, and go on my merry way. If I want to stop and talk to the "scary" person, I put her in a sit-stay and reward her for holding it. She can generally handle that as long as the person doesn't try to pet her. If it's someone she may have to interact with or be around regularly (she decided a lady in our agility class was scary one night), I will let them toss or hand her treats, but not pet her since that sets her off more.

[madremissy]

Diana, I hope that I am not encountering inmates loose. Well there is the jail right down the road.

Sarah, Thanks for your explanation.