Any thoughts on these foods?

Postby TheRedQueen » March 24th, 2009, 11:57 am

The first one is a food designed for working dogs...so, it's higher protein than the regular formula...which is the second one listed.

Guaranteed Analysis
Crude Protein 32.0% Minimum
Crude Fat 25.0% Minimum
Crude Fiber 4.0% Maximum
Moisture 10.0% Maximum
Sodium 0.3% Maximum
Zinc 150 mg/kg Minimum
Selenium 0.4 mg/kg Minimum
Vitamin E 150 IU/kg Minimum
Omega-6 Fatty Acids * 3.5% Minimum
Omega-3 Fatty Acids * 0.5% Minimum
Glucosamine Hydrochloride * 300 mg/kg Minimum
Chondroitin Sulfate * 100 mg/kg Minimum

* Not recognized as an essential nutrient by the AAFCO Dog Food Nutrient Profile.

Calorie Content: 4,710 kcal/kg (470 kcal/cup) Calculated Metabolizable Energy.

Ingredients
Chicken meal, chicken, brewers rice, chicken fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols), egg product, cracked pearled barley, powdered cellulose, beet pulp, flaxseed, natural chicken flavor, fish meal, potassium chloride, choline chloride, glucosamine hydrochloride, vitamin E supplement, iron proteinate, zinc proteinate, copper proteinate, ferrous sulfate, zinc sulfate, copper sulfate, potassium iodide, thiamine mononitrate (vitamin B1), manganese proteinate, manganous oxide, chondroitin sulfate, ascorbic acid, vitamin A supplement, biotin, calcium pantothenate, manganese sulfate, sodium selenite, pyridoxine hydrochloride (vitamin B6), vitamin B12 supplement, riboflavin (vitamin B2), vitamin D supplement, folic acid.


Guaranteed Analysis
Crude Protein 26.0% Minimum
Crude Fat 16.0% Minimum
Crude Fiber 3.0% Maximum
Moisture 10.0% Maximum
Zinc 150 mg/kg Minimum
Selenium 0.4 mg/kg Minimum
Vitamin E 150 IU/kg Minimum
Omega-6 Fatty Acids * 2.5% Minimum
Omega-3 Fatty Acids * 0.4% Minimum

* Not recognized as an essential nutrient by the AAFCO Dog Food Nutrient Profile.

Calorie Content: 3,708 kcal/kg (368 kcal/cup) Calculated Metabolizable Energy.

Ingredients
Chicken, chicken meal, whole grain brown rice, white rice, cracked pearled barley, chicken fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols), oatmeal, beet pulp, egg product, flaxseed, natural chicken flavor, fish meal, potassium chloride, choline chloride, vitamin E supplement, iron proteinate, zinc proteinate, copper proteinate, ferrous sulfate, zinc sulfate, copper sulfate, potassium iodide, thiamine mononitrate, manganese proteinate, manganous oxide, ascorbic acid, vitamin A supplement, biotin, calcium pantothenate, manganese sulfate, sodium selenite, pyridoxine hydrochloride (vitamin B6), vitamin B12 supplement, riboflavin, vitamin D supplement, folic acid.
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Postby TheRedQueen » March 24th, 2009, 11:59 am

Here's what I'm feeding right now...

Chicken, chicken meal, whole grain brown rice, cracked pearl barley, chicken fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols and vitamin E), egg product, beet pulp, potatoes, fish meal, flaxseed, natural flavor, brewers dried yeast, millet, potassium chloride, salt, choline chloride, carrots, peas, kelp, apples, dried skim milk, cranberry powder, rosemary extract, parsley flake, dried chicory root, glucosamine hydrochloride, vitamin E supplement, iron proteinate, zinc proteinate, copper proteinate, ferrous sulfate, zinc sulfate, copper sulfate, potassium iodide, thiamine mononitrate, manganese proteinate, manganous oxide, chondroitin sulfate, ascorbic acid, vitamin A supplement, biotin, calcium pantothenate, manganese sulfate, sodium selenite, pyridoxine hydrochloride (vitamin B6), vitamin B12 supplement, riboflavin, vitamin D supplement, folic acid.

Kirkland Signature Range Chicken Guaranteed Analysis:
Crude protein ............24% min
Crude fat ............16% min
Crude fiber ............4% min
Moisture ............10% min
Calcium ............1% min
Phosphorus ............0.8% min
Zinc ............200 mg/kg min
Selenium ............0.4 mg/kg min
Vitamin E ............150IU/kg min
Omega-6 Fatty Acids............ 2.5% min
Omega-3 Fatty Acids ............0.4% min
Glucosamine Hydrochloride............ 300 mg/kg
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Postby BoogerLover » March 24th, 2009, 12:00 pm

is your dog a working dog?

are you looking for more protein in its diet?

i think you should probably look for a food with meat as it's first few ingredients.. not necessarily a "meal"

:|
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Postby pitbullmamaliz » March 24th, 2009, 12:04 pm

Actually meal is generally better because if a "meat" is the first ingredient, it's probably a lot less after it gets cooked down, while a meal is still substantial after cooking.
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Postby TheRedQueen » March 24th, 2009, 12:06 pm

Three of the five (Sawyer, Inara, Score) of them burn off weight like nobody's business...those three play flyball and play hard. Sawyer is a Service Dog...and it's gonna be harder to keep weight on him as he gets out more as the weather gets nicer. Right now, he's eating 2 cups...up from 1 cup. Score is at 3 cups and Inara is at 2. Score weighs 52#...the other two are right under 40#.

Xander and Rip don't need anything full of fat/protein right now...they're doing fine at 2 cups of regular food...though Rip is also up from 1 cup this past winter. He got really skinny this past month.

I have to find a cheap but decent food, as I'm poor. :D
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Postby BoogerLover » March 24th, 2009, 12:11 pm

hmmm.. i didn't know that about meal..

what i figured would probably work would be Evo--as it's 42% protein.. and most dogs gain weight (or keep weight on on it!)

but when it comes to pricing.. then Wellness CORE, would be more cost-efficient!
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Postby mnp13 » March 24th, 2009, 12:24 pm

Erin I don't like any of those foods. They only have one protein source in the first 5 ingredients, and only one of them has another "meal" in the first 10.

One of them has rice as the second and third ingredient (I don't count the meat first ingredient) so it's quite possible that the real first ingredient is rice.

pitbullmamaliz wrote:Actually meal is generally better because if a "meat" is the first ingredient, it's probably a lot less after it gets cooked down, while a meal is still substantial after cooking.

Exactly. Meat is mostly water and ingredients in pet food are listed by pre-processing weight. Once you remove all that water the meat source falls waaaaaay down the list.

In my opinion, you should look for multiple protein sources and have at least half of them meal in the first 10 ingredients and not double up any of the others (brown rice and white rice for example.)
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Postby dogged » March 24th, 2009, 12:38 pm

Is the first Diamond Naturals Extreme Athlete? If so, I tried this one with my hard keepers (Bud/Tate). The results were so-so and they didn't gain weight like I had anticipated with that kind of fat content. I'm still trying different performance foods on them, but finding one with respectable ingredients is pretty hard to come by. Most have by-products and tons o' fillers.

Here is the newest kibble I plan to try. It doesn't have a high fat content and the ingredients are OK, but the k/cals per cup is higher than EA.
http://www.caninecaviar.com/Chicken%20A ... Adult.aspx

I can get a 33lb bag for $44 locally.

Not trying to hijack your thread, but I've been going through the same thing with my two food burners. Let me know if you find anything that works!
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Postby BoogerLover » March 24th, 2009, 12:53 pm

i've tried canine caviar, but my pups didn't really do so well on it...

they had the runs pretty consistently on it :cry:

thanks for the food info!! i'll keep that in mind on my next food purchase!
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Postby TheRedQueen » March 24th, 2009, 9:14 pm

dogged wrote:Is the first Diamond Naturals Extreme Athlete? If so, I tried this one with my hard keepers (Bud/Tate). The results were so-so and they didn't gain weight like I had anticipated with that kind of fat content. I'm still trying different performance foods on them, but finding one with respectable ingredients is pretty hard to come by. Most have by-products and tons o' fillers.

Here is the newest kibble I plan to try. It doesn't have a high fat content and the ingredients are OK, but the k/cals per cup is higher than EA.
http://www.caninecaviar.com/Chicken%20A ... Adult.aspx

I can get a 33lb bag for $44 locally.

Not trying to hijack your thread, but I've been going through the same thing with my two food burners. Let me know if you find anything that works!


yup...it's the Extreme Athlete. Thanks for the input.

I know none of them are great...but I can't afford "great". :| I'm looking for half-way decent. They're all doing well on the Kirkland...but we don't want to have to keep paying the $50/year for the Costco card...and have to drive down to the Costco to buy that food. I figured if I could use the regular Diamond...then I could save gas $$$ as well as the membership fee. The Costco version runs me around $25/40#...and the Diamond chick/rice runs about the same...but is closer to home. lol
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Postby Dog_Shrink » March 24th, 2009, 10:48 pm

I don't feed my guys anything spectacular like Evo or wellness but what I have found for them works great. It is by a manufacturer called Pride and we feed the 26/18 variety. Here is a link to their site: http://www.thepridedogfood.com/ We get it right at the feed mill up the street from us and if you go on the site you can search for a local distributor or just call them. I did and they were great!

Here is the breakdown of the one I feed my guys and the best thing is it's only $24 bucks for 50 lbs.

26/18 ADULT PERFORMANCE
Image
GUARANTEED ANALYSIS
Crude Protein Min 26.0%
Crude Fat Min 18.0%
Crude Fiber Max 2.0%
Moisture Max 10.0%
*Omega 3 Min 0.5%
*Omega 6 Min 3.0%

* Omega's not recognized as an essential nutrient
by the AFFCO Dog Food Nutrients Profile.

Adult Proformance formula is recommend-
ed for Sporting or any active dog that will
be placed in high stress conditions, It also
makes a great Large Breed Puppy Food.
There is no need for Vitamins, Minerals or
other Supplements.This product is formula-
ted to meet the nutritional levels established
by the AAFCO Dog Food Nutrient Profiles
for all stages of your Dog's life.

Daily Feeding Guide
weight lbs # of cups
10 or less 3/4 to 1 1/4
10- 20 1 1/4 to 1 1/2
20-30 1 1/2 to 2
30-40 2 to 2 1/4
40-60 2 1/4 to 2 1/2
60-80 2 1/2 to 3

May be fed wet or dry.

INGREDIENTS
Porcine Meat and Bone Meal, Ground Brewers Rice, Ground
Yellow Corn, Poultry Fat ( stabilized with Mixed Tocopherols
and Citric Acid ),Chicken by Product Meal, Corn Gluten Meal,
Beet Pulp, Animal Digest, Flaxseed, Dried Whole Eggs, Dried
Cheddar Cheese, Brewers Dried Yeast, Dried Whey,
Dried Buttermilk, Dried Cottage Cheese, Salt, Dicalcium
Phosphate,Potassium Chloride,Chlorine Chloride, DL-
Methionine, Ferrous Sulfate, Zinc Oxide, Vitamin E Supplement,
Niacin Supplement, Copper Sulfate, d- Calcium Panthothenate,
Folic Acid, Vitamin A Acetate in Gelatin, Manganous Oxide,
d-biotin, Ascorbic Acid ( Vitamin C ), Menadione Dimethylpy-
rimidinol Bisulfite( source of Vitamin K ), Vitamin B12
Supplement,Vitamin D3 Supplement, Riboflavin Supplement,
Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Ethylenediamine Diihydrodide,
Thiamine Mononitrate,Inositol and Sodium Selenite.

Available in 20, 40 and, 50# Bags
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Postby BritneyP » March 24th, 2009, 11:32 pm

Erin, I'd say if you are looking for something a little more convenient than having to drive to Costco, but you feel your crew is doing just fine on the Kirkland, go with the Diamond Naturals Chicken & Rice. Kirkland is manufactured by Diamond and I'm sure as you can tell by the ingredients, it's basically just the Diamond Naturals repackaged.

So if you don't really think your guys need the extra fat and protein, I'd stick with the regular Chicken & Rice formula.
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Postby BullyLady » March 25th, 2009, 12:02 am

Dog_Shrink wrote:INGREDIENTS
Porcine Meat and Bone Meal, Ground Brewers Rice, Ground
Yellow Corn, Poultry Fat ( stabilized with Mixed Tocopherols
and Citric Acid ),Chicken by Product Meal, Corn Gluten Meal,
Beet Pulp, Animal Digest, Flaxseed, Dried Whole Eggs, Dried
Cheddar Cheese, Brewers Dried Yeast, Dried Whey,
Dried Buttermilk, Dried Cottage Cheese, Salt, Dicalcium
Phosphate,Potassium Chloride,Chlorine Chloride, DL-
Methionine, Ferrous Sulfate, Zinc Oxide, Vitamin E Supplement,
Niacin Supplement, Copper Sulfate, d- Calcium Panthothenate,
Folic Acid, Vitamin A Acetate in Gelatin, Manganous Oxide,
d-biotin, Ascorbic Acid ( Vitamin C ), Menadione Dimethylpy-
rimidinol Bisulfite( source of Vitamin K ), Vitamin B12
Supplement,Vitamin D3 Supplement, Riboflavin Supplement,
Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Ethylenediamine Diihydrodide,
Thiamine Mononitrate,Inositol and Sodium Selenite.

Available in 20, 40 and, 50# Bags


Eeeeeek!! :o Those ingredients are no good!!
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Postby TheRedQueen » March 25th, 2009, 8:34 am

BritneyP wrote:Erin, I'd say if you are looking for something a little more convenient than having to drive to Costco, but you feel your crew is doing just fine on the Kirkland, go with the Diamond Naturals Chicken & Rice. Kirkland is manufactured by Diamond and I'm sure as you can tell by the ingredients, it's basically just the Diamond Naturals repackaged.

So if you don't really think your guys need the extra fat and protein, I'd stick with the regular Chicken & Rice formula.


Thanks...that's what I was thinking... 8)
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Postby BritneyP » March 25th, 2009, 10:41 am

BullyLady wrote:
Dog_Shrink wrote:INGREDIENTS
Porcine Meat and Bone Meal, Ground Brewers Rice, Ground
Yellow Corn, Poultry Fat ( stabilized with Mixed Tocopherols
and Citric Acid ),Chicken by Product Meal, Corn Gluten Meal,
Beet Pulp, Animal Digest, Flaxseed, Dried Whole Eggs, Dried
Cheddar Cheese, Brewers Dried Yeast, Dried Whey,
Dried Buttermilk, Dried Cottage Cheese, Salt, Dicalcium
Phosphate,Potassium Chloride,Chlorine Chloride, DL-
Methionine, Ferrous Sulfate, Zinc Oxide, Vitamin E Supplement,
Niacin Supplement, Copper Sulfate, d- Calcium Panthothenate,
Folic Acid, Vitamin A Acetate in Gelatin, Manganous Oxide,
d-biotin, Ascorbic Acid ( Vitamin C ), Menadione Dimethylpy-
rimidinol Bisulfite( source of Vitamin K ), Vitamin B12
Supplement,Vitamin D3 Supplement, Riboflavin Supplement,
Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Ethylenediamine Diihydrodide,
Thiamine Mononitrate,Inositol and Sodium Selenite.

Available in 20, 40 and, 50# Bags


Eeeeeek!! :o Those ingredients are no good!!


Ditto. :puke:
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Postby mnp13 » March 25th, 2009, 12:25 pm

BullyLady wrote:
Dog_Shrink wrote:INGREDIENTS
Porcine Meat and Bone Meal, Ground Brewers Rice, Ground
Yellow Corn, Poultry Fat ( stabilized with Mixed Tocopherols
and Citric Acid ),Chicken by Product Meal, Corn Gluten Meal,
Beet Pulp, Animal Digest, Flaxseed, Dried Whole Eggs, Dried
Cheddar Cheese, Brewers Dried Yeast, Dried Whey,
Dried Buttermilk, Dried Cottage Cheese, Salt, Dicalcium
Phosphate,Potassium Chloride,Chlorine Chloride, DL-
Methionine, Ferrous Sulfate, Zinc Oxide, Vitamin E Supplement,
Niacin Supplement, Copper Sulfate, d- Calcium Panthothenate,
Folic Acid, Vitamin A Acetate in Gelatin, Manganous Oxide,
d-biotin, Ascorbic Acid ( Vitamin C ), Menadione Dimethylpy-
rimidinol Bisulfite( source of Vitamin K ), Vitamin B12
Supplement,Vitamin D3 Supplement, Riboflavin Supplement,
Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Ethylenediamine Diihydrodide,
Thiamine Mononitrate,Inositol and Sodium Selenite.

Available in 20, 40 and, 50# Bags


Eeeeeek!! :o Those ingredients are no good!!


I agree, and here's why:

The first ingredient is porcine meat and bone meal, which to me is rather vague. On the good side it might be a meal made of pork meat meal and pork bone meal together. Or it could be pork meat and pork bone meal which really means that it's bone meal mixed with meat which really means that the meal component is pretty far down the list. Assuming it is a mix of meat meal and bone meal, why is it listed like that and how much of that mix is bone and how much is meat? I'm just not liking how it's worded.

Second ingredient: Rice, not horrible

Third ingredient: Corn, not good

Fourth - fat, not horrible, but that's pretty close to the front ingredient wise

fifth - chicken byproduct meal, yuck yuck yuck. by-products are all the things that don't qualify as "chicken" you name it, it's in there. Yes, it's still protein but the quality is low.

sixth - more corn, which puts corn much higher on the list when you combine it.

seventh - beat pulp - there is lots of debate on beat pulp. It's pretty much just a filler.

eighth - animal digest. Here's the official definition - material which results from chemical and/or enzymatic hydrolysis of clean and un-decomposed animal tissue. The animal tissues used shall be exclusive of hair, horns, teeth, hooves and feathers, except in such trace amounts as might occur unavoidably in good factory practice and shall be suitable for animal feed. MAJOR yuck!

ninth - flaxseed - not bad at all

tenth - dried whole eggs - good

The first ten ingredients pretty much define the quality of the food. I would consider this a poor quality food overall and would not feed it.
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Postby Dog_Shrink » March 25th, 2009, 5:49 pm

My dogs have wheat allergies so I have to go with corn... Beet pulp provieds digestive aide and is also a prebiotic, I agree on the animal digest (but you take the good with the bad when feeding 8 dogs) also same with the chicken by product meal. I would rather see a protein valu from fat simply because fat can be stored as energy to be used later and doesn't have to be burned upon consumption like meat protein, plus fats aide in the development of organ tissue and brain matter. Believe me I reaserch the heck out of food before I make a switch. My Dane is usually the candle upon what we measure the quality of food upon since he is the most sensitive to food products and he is thriving on this food. He doesn't look like he's on crack anymore (he put on weight), and has a great coat and attitude as well as HIGHLY active for an 8 year old Dane. He has no problems keeping up with the 2 year old lab :)

I know this isn't the "Perfect" food out there, but again when working with a budget and feeding 8 dogs, I really can't afford the "best alternatives".
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Postby mnp13 » March 25th, 2009, 6:10 pm

Dog_Shrink wrote:My dogs have wheat allergies so I have to go with corn...

Or no grains.

I would rather see a protein valu from fat simply because fat can be stored as energy to be used later and doesn't have to be burned upon consumption like meat protein, plus fats aide in the development of organ tissue and brain matter.

I've never heard that meat protein has to be burned right away? What the body doesn't use it stores, right? In any case, fat is a source of fat, not a source of protein. :|

My Dane is usually the candle upon what we measure the quality of food upon since he is the most sensitive to food products and he is thriving on this food.

The husky I grew up with died at the age of 16 and she was fed Kibbles-n-Bits her whole life. Some dogs thrive on the worst foods out there. However, that does not make them "good" foods. The question is more about the nutritional profile of the food and the quality of the ingredients. How a dog does on a particular food at a particular time in its life isn't really an indicator of how "good" the food is.

I know this isn't the "Perfect" food out there, but again when working with a budget and feeding 8 dogs, I really can't afford the "best alternatives".

there are a ton of variables with dog food, including how much you need to feed at each meal. Sometimes "inexpensive" food is much more expensive.
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