Jumping up (Schutzhund)

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Postby Libby » March 12th, 2009, 4:15 pm

This comment was posted on another forum:

I personally do NOT mind a dog that jumps up. In public they sit before they are allowed to be petted. I had an expierience where someone kept using their knee on one of my dogs and then they started bopping his head. This infuriated me as I had already instructed the person that he was NOT to be reprimanded for jumping up because we train in Schutzhund and encourage the jumping because of the bitework element of it. I finally got the person to stop this behavior but it DID set my dog back.


I can't see the truth in the bolded statement. I train Gypsy in Schutzhund, and she has very good manners in regards to jumping up. She doesn't jump on random people, and she still excells at the bitework part of Schutzhund (well, in everything we've done, really). Being taught to stay down since she was a pup hasn't seemed to effect her drives in any way.

Opinions?



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Postby airwalk » March 12th, 2009, 4:33 pm

I can't speak to Schutzhund...but Scooter knows the difference between when he's working and when he's not and what behaviors are acceptable when he's working and what are not...so my presumption is that most well trained dogs know the same things.
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Postby Libby » March 12th, 2009, 4:36 pm

Thats what I'd assume. Gypsy knows when she is working, so different behaviours are allowed. When she isn't, she doesn't see someone wearing a big thick coat and run to bite their arm (bad example, I know lol)

Point is, you'd think a properly trained dog would know the difference, and what is acceptable in the different situations.


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Postby DemoDick » March 12th, 2009, 4:44 pm

It sounds like the topic of discussion is general inhibition of behaviors.

I don't do schutzhund, rather PP, but I understand this mindset. With my dog, the only person that gets to deliver a correction is me, or possibly another family member from the same household. A PP dog that will stop what he's doing when someone besides me corrects him is a liability in a real incident. Bad guys deliver corrections too, as do opposing decoys in sport situations.

A lot of sport dogs are not corrected for exhuberant or rude behaviors until the drive building phase is done in order to maximize and avoid squashing drive. A puppy that is constantly told "NO!" and reprimanded for being pushy is going to very quickly start second-guessing himself when we ask him to engage and dominate a decoy with behaviors that have gotten him into trouble previously. I'd rather wait until later to teach manners, personally.

Now, every dog and situation is different, but in general, it isn't advisable to raise a sport/bite dog the same way you would a regular household dog. At the same time, if I had a dog that was still in that "pushy but we don't correct it yet" stage I wouldn't be bringing him into many situations where that "rudeness" would manifest.

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Postby BritneyP » March 12th, 2009, 5:13 pm

:clap: To everything Demo said. I couldn't have said it better myself. So, to answer your question: Yes, it can affect their drives and I do not correct my dogs for jumping, nor do I put them in situations where they'd have the opportunity to do so while they are still in the foundation phase of their training.
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Postby mnp13 » March 12th, 2009, 5:19 pm

I agree that other people should not be correcting your dog unless you ask them to... however, I don't care what training you are doing, your dog shouldn't be jumping on people. If it has that little by way of manners, leave it home.
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Postby Libby » March 12th, 2009, 5:21 pm

That makes sense, Dick. I don't like when other people correct my dogs either, and no one had better lay a finger on them.

I'll just outright say that its me she is accusing of hitting her dog. The only one to correct her dog was her. I hardly ever interacted with the dog, beyond patting him on the head.

The person in question would encourage jumping up in training, then during play when the dog would jump, she would smack him on the head or punch him in the ribs to make him get down.

In my mind, that would create major confusion for the dog, and more than likely be the cause of any inhibited drives.


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Postby airwalk » March 12th, 2009, 6:55 pm

Demo I get what you're saying, but I agree, if you have a dog that you are in that stage with then it should not be put in a situation where it jumps on someone regularly enough to require correction. If you aren't handling your dog, you should assume someone else will especially if the someone else is on the receiving end of bad or unwanted behaviors.
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Postby pitbullmamaliz » March 12th, 2009, 7:00 pm

I'm different from a lot of you. Inara's not being trained in protection, so maybe that's why, but I PREFER others correct Inara instead of letting her walk all over them. I think it helps her learn that manners are necessary even if I'm not around to correct her. I obviously don't let people hit her or yell at her, but if she jumps on you - please, walk forward into her or turn away. If she begs for food (Demo knows how well she can beg for food) make her go lie down.
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Postby katiek0417 » March 12th, 2009, 8:43 pm

I'm just going to chime in here, if I may...

Correcting a working dog when it's young can inhibit it's drive - yes, I've seen it...and I nearly had it happen to Nisha, and may bring about nerve issues. However, there are other methods that one can use to train a dog to do (or not do) certain things. You don't need to use corrections. I taught Sacha not to jump on people by using negative punishment (taking away something good to decrease a behavior).

That's the first thing.

The second thing is that I've heard many trainers tell handlers not to stop their dog from jumping on people. Not because you need the jumping for the sport, however. More because you don't want to correct the dog. This tends to be an error on the part of many trainers.

PERSONALLY, I allow my working dogs to jump on me. I NEVER stop them from doing so (which is one reason why I haven't been interacting with Nemo b/c he launches when he jumps, and we're just afraid he'll push me backwards which my knee isn't stable enough for, yet...however, I can do the drug stuff with him b/c once he has the kong - which is his reward - he jumps on me gently)...but, I digress...I allow my dogs to jump on me. In Nisha's and Cy's case, they jump on me after they've been given the tug reward...and they do it more for lovin while they have the tug in their mouth....kinda like "look what I got."

Because I allow my dogs to jump on me, and Greg allows them to jump on him, and many of my working dog friends allow my dogs to jump on them....I can't possibly expect my dogs to differentiate when they meet someone who may not want the dog to jump (the good news is, I don't have to worry about Cy b/c he typically doesn't have a desire to jump on random people)...so, out of courtesy, I don't take my dogs out to meet random people...and if I do stop to speak to someone, I put my dogs in obedience mode...either sit or down...but the command, and the correction if they break, comes from me.

As far as corrections go - aside from Greg and I - I don't want random people correcting my dogs. Personal preference. I have allowed decoys to correct my dogs...and I've done that to get certain behaviors from them while I remain at a distance (this is especially important with Cy b/c if he thinks the correction comes from me, he's so sensitive that he comes to my side :crazy2: ).

I guess my overall point is this: if you want your dog to act a certain way that may not be acceptable to other people, then don't take the dog around those people. And, if someone is repeatedly doing something to your dog that you don't like, well...guess what? You have two feet. Walk away...WITH YOUR DOG!!!! You don't have to continue to ask the person not to do it....especially if you feel like it will hurt your dog.

I was once working with a new decoy who esquived Cy...and he broke his tooth during the esquive. When I brought Nisha out, I asked him not to do that to her as she was still young and I didn't want to screw anything up in her targeting, and I ESPECIALLY didn't want her to break a tooth. The first send, he esquived her. Guess what? I grabbed her leash, and put her away. You don't have to allow something to happen to your dog that you think might screw it up NO MATTER WHAT you are training it do!

Okay...I'm done...and I apologize if my post made no sense...
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Postby SisMorphine » March 12th, 2009, 9:46 pm

As usual my answer is: it depends on the dog. For some dogs any form of correction or redirection for jumping is going to completely squelch the drive, whereas others can learned when to jump and not to jump situationally without it becoming an issue.


But in the example a few posts up where sometimes a dog is invited up to jump, and at others is given physical correction to not do so, IMO definitely could put most dogs in conflict.
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Postby DemoDick » March 12th, 2009, 10:30 pm

The person in question would encourage jumping up in training, then during play when the dog would jump, she would smack him on the head or punch him in the ribs to make him get down.

In my mind, that would create major confusion for the dog, and more than likely be the cause of any inhibited drives.


This wouldn't necessarily inhibit drive, but it would most definitely create conflict in the dog that would manifest in displacement behaviors or avoidance. You can't beat his ass one minute and then ask him to do the same thing later for a reward, unless you're trying to create neurosis, as myself, Alyssa, and others have pointed out.

As usual my answer is: it depends on the dog. For some dogs any form of correction or redirection for jumping is going to completely squelch the drive, whereas others can learned when to jump and not to jump situationally without it becoming an issue.


I think a dog with a high degree of equipment fixation who quickly picks up training cues ( a "sporty" type dog if you'll pardon the expression) will learn this more readily. If he's at the usual training location, loaded with cues, he's going to realize it's time to bite and manners fly out the window. Away from those cues, they come back. Other dogs with more of an "edge" to their personality (those that like to hurt the decoy for real and will spit out equipment to get a live bite) will be tougher to teach this differentiation. Alyssa's former dog Mike struck me as an example of what I'm referring to. Connor is also an example of this type of dog. He knows when we're "playing" bitework due to training cues, but is deadly serious in the work and if the decoy tries to correct him he'd better watch his hands and face. He'll play fair if the decoy does, but he's not above a brawl if one breaks out. He's the same way away from training; very safe and friendly until he is challenged or attacked, and then he switches on. Needless to say, I stridently avoid situations in which other people will be put in a position to feel the need to correct him.

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Postby airwalk » March 12th, 2009, 11:40 pm

Demo I think that's exactly the point. You don't put Connor in the position to do something that would have someone unacceptably correct him especially repeatedly, and then stand around a bitch about it.

I realize Scoots is not a sport dog, but I have worked very hard to do exactly the opposite of what you guys do with your sport dogs..I've tried to supress most of his drive so that he can be that rock solid safe dog that I can "trust" (I know that I can trust him in situations in which I am in control...)

He has about 4 people he works with besides me and he takes and accepts correction and training from any of them - but they do it my way, because when it comes to Scoots my way is the only way. I don't allow anyone else to correct him, especially not repeatedly. If someone is having a problem with Scooter I try to spot it before they feel the need to correct him and if they do then he is immediately placed on his leash and brought within my control and only my control or he's removed. Kind of what Katrina was saying.

So I guess my problem with the original question is that if the OP asked someone to not correct the dog - once - then that's one thing. But if they permitted the situation to continue to a point that request had to be made repeatedly then the dog owner has failed - both their dog and their human contacts. IMHO
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Postby DemoDick » March 13th, 2009, 8:51 am

Demo I think that's exactly the point. You don't put Connor in the position to do something that would have someone unacceptably correct him especially repeatedly, and then stand around a bitch about it.


I wouldn't be able to stand around and bitch about it; after the first correction I'd be too busy dealing with the aftermath of a bite. No thanks.

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Postby maberi » March 13th, 2009, 10:11 am

Very interesting topic and this may be a bit off topic, but what does esquived mean? I apologize for my ignorance in this area
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Postby TheRedQueen » March 13th, 2009, 10:24 am

I'll tell you that I don't correct for jumping up...and I tell my puppy raisers to not correct for it either. In the realm of Assistance Dogs, you have to be careful what you correct...because it can definitely come back and bite you in the ass. You can't get mad for a puppy picking up items around the house...because you might need them to pick it up for you one day (remote control, shoes, etc). Same thing with jumping. I might have to have that dog jump up to hand an item to someone...so I don't want the dog wary of jumping up.

I will put the behavior on cue ("Paws" or "Paws up") and encourage it only on cue...and not reinforce it when it's not on cue. I reinforce other behaviors instead (if I'm not cuing jumping)...like sit or down.

Score learned early on...he knew that jumping up on people got nothing...because I was consistent, and told people to ignore him if he jumped (starting at 9 weeks old). But then I put the behavior on cue...and give him the cue every so often. He has NO problem leaping up on me when it's allowed and cued! :D Gibbs is going down the same route...he doesn't jump up for attention...because he gets HEAVILY reinforced for being "universally cute" (to borrow a phrase)...sitting his plump little butt on the ground and looking up with puppy dog eyes. But trust me...when it comes time to play tug...he's leaping in the air, growling and shaking with the best of them. :rolleyes2:
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Postby BritneyP » March 13th, 2009, 11:56 am

maberi wrote:Very interesting topic and this may be a bit off topic, but what does esquived mean? I apologize for my ignorance in this area


Matt, to esquive, which in french literally translates "to dodge", means that the decoys try to make the dog miss the bite on it's entries.

Myself, as well as some others, will not allow this to be done to our dogs. It can result in injuries such as broken teeth. The only competitive bite sport that esquiving is allowed in is French Ring. All other sports, such as Schutzhund, PSA, & Mondio Ring, it is strictly prohibited.
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Postby mnp13 » March 13th, 2009, 12:01 pm

maberi wrote:Very interesting topic and this may be a bit off topic, but what does esquived mean? I apologize for my ignorance in this area


It's when you make the dog miss. In French Ring the decoy's job is to try to make the dog miss.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=joQd3j6Y4uY
At about 1:36 you'll see the decoy move his leg so that the dog misses.
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Postby maberi » March 13th, 2009, 12:32 pm

Thank you
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Postby mnp13 » March 13th, 2009, 12:46 pm

mnp13 wrote:I agree that other people should not be correcting your dog unless you ask them to... however, I don't care what training you are doing, your dog shouldn't be jumping on people. If it has that little by way of manners, leave it home.


I just reread this post and thought more about it.

Connor jumps on plenty of people, but those are the people who know it's coming. When we have people over who know and expect it, he gets to run rampant and play. When my grandmother is over he keeps all four feet on the floor at all times. He jumps on Jenn to get her to play with him, he doesn't jump on Mia - and he is the one who understands the difference.

Ruby is a rude, spoiled brat who jumps on people and gets yelled at for it, and I don't care if people knee her in the chest for it. Hitting her is a whole different thing though.

Riggs generally doesn't jump on people, but he was being rude to someone last summer and the person smacked him in the head. I informed them that if they ever did it again they wouldn't be seeing him again .. and since he comes with me well, that would be that. I got an apology.
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