Endometrial damage

by **Malli** » January 27th, 2009, 4:45 am

wow, very medically tactful :lol3:

by **pitbullmamaliz** » January 27th, 2009, 9:32 am

Alright, for the bonus follow-up question: Why is elevated progesterone unhealthy for a dog? It's obviously not unhealthy for a pregnant woman as most pregnant women have that "glow" about them.

by **SisMorphine** » January 27th, 2009, 9:58 am

Good questions, all! I'm definitely enjoying this thread. Thanks.

Though I must say it makes me very curious as to how the "Don't breed any closer together than 2 years" thing came up if none of us can find any studies to support it

by **BritneyP** » January 27th, 2009, 1:26 pm

SisMorphine wrote: "Don't breed any closer together than 2 years" thing came up if none of us can find any studies to support it

I'm confused, what do you mean by that? :confused:

by **BritneyP** » January 27th, 2009, 1:44 pm

Just found this FANTASTIC transcript of an interview with Dr. Hutchinson, a very, very well renowned reproduction specialist. There is a small section about the pro's of breeding back to back heats. Lots of other good info too! :mrgreen:

http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Conten ... C=0&A=1224

by **SisMorphine** » January 27th, 2009, 2:00 pm

BritneyP wrote:
SisMorphine wrote: "Don't breed any closer together than 2 years" thing came up if none of us can find any studies to support it

I'm confused, what do you mean by that?

Meaning that the general feeling is that if a person doesn't take a year off in between breedings then they are normally considered a BYB/peddler/miller. So if the case is that it is actually healthier for a dog to be bred on back to back heats then why does the general consensus of responsible breeding say otherwise? Was there a study done at some point that proved the opposite?

by **mnp13** » January 27th, 2009, 2:56 pm

pitbullmamaliz wrote:Alright, for the bonus follow-up question: Why is elevated progesterone unhealthy for a dog? It's obviously not unhealthy for a pregnant woman as most pregnant women have that "glow" about them.

Because the pregnant women actually are pregnant and the body needs it. The dogs are not pregnant, so the body doesn't need it but it's there anyway.

by **katiek0417** » January 27th, 2009, 3:33 pm

SisMorphine wrote:Meaning that the general feeling is that if a person doesn't take a year off in between breedings then they are normally considered a BYB/peddler/miller. So if the case is that it is actually healthier for a dog to be bred on back to back heats then why does the general consensus of responsible breeding say otherwise? Was there a study done at some point that proved the opposite?

I've got my automatic search engines looking for some scientific evidence on this...but I wonder if it more has to do with our perception and human emotion. If we take a dog's heat cycle - it usually occurs every 6 months (regardless of whether she gets pregnant). If you breed her and she gets pregnant...she has 2 months of pregnancy, then whelping, then raising puppies for almost another 2 months. Then it can take some dogs nearly 2 months to be normal again (meaning their breasts sucking/shrinking back up, etc)...

So, right after they return to normal, you breed them again...never truly giving the dog enough time to just "be a dog" in between litters...

However, what I think we fail to remember is that in the wild, where the (feral) dogs really are "just dogs," this would occur...

By owning domesticated dogs, many of us provide them with warm shelter, regular meals, love, attention, etc. Feral Dogs can't count on any of this - and, as humans, we have sympathy for these dogs - b/c we believe all dogs should have this.

Well, dogs that are owned by BYB's and puppy mills are often kept outside in cages, they don't get a ton of attention, etc...they live much like feral dogs, with the exception that they don't have the freedom to run around like a feral dog...and, in that way, they are worse off than a feral dog...so, we have even more sympathy for these dogs...

Then, you have the breeders who truly care about the breed, and are breeding for a purpose...and they want to do whatever they can to make sure that they are not thought of as these abhorred BYB's/puppy millers...so they do everything opposite...

I don't know...I just think that human emotion and perception plays some role here...

by **mnp13** » January 27th, 2009, 3:45 pm

Breeding back to back heats may be the best for the reproductive system, but I can't imagine it is actually good for the dog as a whole. I would guess it would "age" a dog quickly. Do I have a study to back that up? No, but that much stress can't not take a toll.

And honestly, unless your full time job is taking care of your dogs, how would anyone have the time, money and energy to screen homes, raise and vet puppies, etc twice a year every year? I know people who spent years just looking for just the right match for their bitch, how do you find that over and over and over unless you are doing repeat breedings and the ethics of that is a whole other discussion...

by **katiek0417** » January 27th, 2009, 3:53 pm

mnp13 wrote:I know people who spent years just looking for just the right match for their bitch, how do you find that over and over and over unless you are doing repeat breedings and the ethics of that is a whole other discussion...

However, many breeders actually have planned breedings from the time a bitch is acquired/born...I know many sport and show breeders who know exactly what stud they will be breeding their bitches to and on which heat cycle...they make scenarios as the bitch is growing up and they have things lined up way before the breeding ever takes place...and, often times, there are contracts in place for this well before the breeding is to occur...

And most stud owners just want a brucellosis test on the bitch 14 days prior to breeding...

by **SisMorphine** » January 27th, 2009, 4:03 pm

mnp13 wrote:Breeding back to back heats may be the best for the reproductive system, but I can't imagine it is actually good for the dog as a whole. I would guess it would "age" a dog quickly. Do I have a study to back that up? No, but that much stress can't not take a toll.

I agree that I can't imagine it doesn't take a toll on the body as a whole, which is why this whole thing confuses the hell out of me. Good for the uterus, bad for the dog. Which is why I want to see actual studies from both ends, to help me sort this stuff out a bit.

mnp13 wrote: I know people who spent years just looking for just the right match for their bitch, how do you find that over and over and over unless you are doing repeat breedings and the ethics of that is a whole other discussion...

Well frankly I have more possible studs for Teeny at this time than the number of litters I plan on breeding her for, so I do think that it is possible to have more than enough matches if you have a great dog, so I don't really find this the issue. To me I'm far more focused on the health aspect of it all.

by **katiek0417** » January 27th, 2009, 4:15 pm

SisMorphine wrote:
mnp13 wrote: I know people who spent years just looking for just the right match for their bitch, how do you find that over and over and over unless you are doing repeat breedings and the ethics of that is a whole other discussion...

Well frankly I have more possible studs for Teeny at this time than the number of litters I plan on breeding her for, so I do think that it is possible to have more than enough matches if you have a great dog, so I don't really find this the issue. To me I'm far more focused on the health aspect of it all.

100% agreed!

by **BritneyP** » January 27th, 2009, 6:06 pm

mnp13 wrote:Breeding back to back heats may be the best for the reproductive system, but I can't imagine it is actually good for the dog as a whole. I would guess it would "age" a dog quickly. Do I have a study to back that up? No, but that much stress can't not take a toll.

It all depends on the individual dog. This quote comes directly from an extremely well known and reputable breeder of working german shepherds:

"I have worked with many repro specialists over the years - ALL of whom have the opinion that breeding every heat is better for the female, especially older females, than skipping heat cycles. That is IF the female is healthy, in excellent condition, good coat, no problems with the whelping, producing milk, caring for puppies, or losing condition from the last litter. IF she does lose coat/condition or has trouble with a litter or loses condition after, then skipping a heat is probably a good choice. But if she is in great shape, great coat, no problems whelping or raising the litter, she's bright and active and "ready to go" - then breed her consecutively. In the opinion of ALL of the repro specialists I've worked with/spoken to, it's up to the breeder to know their females, and know when and if she needs a break. Some females need a break every other heat, some never need a break. Especially older females (as long as they are in excellent condition), breeding each heat is better for them - coming into season is hard on their bodies hormonally regardless if they are pregnant or not. So you're not really giving them a break (from all of the hormonal changes) by skipping a heat - the only break is from the whelping/raising puppies. Spaying them (which should be done before they get too old) gives their bodies the only real break."

by **katiek0417** » January 27th, 2009, 6:50 pm

BritneyP wrote:
It all depends on the individual dog. This quote comes directly from an extremely well known and reputable breeder of working german shepherds:

"I have worked with many repro specialists over the years - ALL of whom have the opinion that breeding every heat is better for the female, especially older females, than skipping heat cycles. That is IF the female is healthy, in excellent condition, good coat, no problems with the whelping, producing milk, caring for puppies, or losing condition from the last litter. IF she does lose coat/condition or has trouble with a litter or loses condition after, then skipping a heat is probably a good choice. But if she is in great shape, great coat, no problems whelping or raising the litter, she's bright and active and "ready to go" - then breed her consecutively. In the opinion of ALL of the repro specialists I've worked with/spoken to, it's up to the breeder to know their females, and know when and if she needs a break. Some females need a break every other heat, some never need a break. Especially older females (as long as they are in excellent condition), breeding each heat is better for them - coming into season is hard on their bodies hormonally regardless if they are pregnant or not. So you're not really giving them a break (from all of the hormonal changes) by skipping a heat - the only break is from the whelping/raising puppies. Spaying them (which should be done before they get too old) gives their bodies the only real break."

Based on this, I would never breed Sacha back to back...those puppies took so much out of her...and then she starting losing her hair...it was bad...

But Drusilla, for example, did great with the puppies, and bounced back with no problem...

by **blabsforbullies** » January 27th, 2009, 8:43 pm

pitbullmamaliz wrote:Alright, for the bonus follow-up question: Why is elevated progesterone unhealthy for a dog? It's obviously not unhealthy for a pregnant woman as most pregnant women have that "glow" about them.

Having that level of progesterone in a human, say, 2-3 times in their lives (depending on, obviously, how many kids they have :wink:

), is not likely to cause the problems (mammy cancer, possible pyometra, other types of cancer, etc) that having a bitch unspayed going through heat after heat after heat will have. The continual increased levels of progesterone is what is concerning. :neutral:

I have no human chitlins of my own, but my guess is that the glow is not necessarily related to the progesterone, but rather the emotional effects as well. :smileUp:

Plus, as a general rule, I think women tend to take better care of themselves when they are pregnant (eat right, hopefully get more sleep, etc). :mrgreen:

by **Leslie H** » January 27th, 2009, 9:22 pm

There is a vast difference in how females handle the physical rigors of whelping, just the way you see big difference between how women handle pregnancy, delivery, and early infant care. I had a co-worker I used to carpool with. We spent several months w/me driving, and her holding the puke bucket. When I was pregnant, the only time I was nauseous was driving in my mom's wallowy car to the hospital, and riding the elevator up to the delivery floor.
Some females are great mothers in every sense of the word. Others are awful, from the early stages, right through weaning.

Endometrial damage

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