TheRedQueen wrote:Just had a thought...do you think, as I'm inclined to do...that there is a definite difference between herding dogs like Aussies, BCs, etc that are still used more for herding...and herding breeds (mals, dutchies, even GSDs) that are used more for protection type sports? The last time I was out herding, the folks that had the mals and GSDs were having more trouble with their dogs...trying to get them to not eat the sheep.
Where as I have a harder time getting a hard bite out of my Aussies. Xander has a good bite, he'll bite hard and true...and will hang on even when being swung around by my 6'4" BIL (he used to love that game). The Aussies (meaning mine)...esp. Inara tend to re-bite, and do lots of little nipping bites. Biting is acceptable in herding, to some extent...but you don't want them to be bloodying the sheep or cow!
Inara has a nice tug drive, but she'll come up the tug at you...or nail your thigh as she re-positions...
I have a bruise from Friday night when she nailed me in flyball. Ripley loves to tug, but only uses the front of his mouth...and does a LOT of shaking (as does Inara). Sawyer does lots of little tugs...and is very gentle (for John). For all my guys, I trained them with them being tied to a solid post, and teased them with the tug, ripped it away, let them win, etc...building tug drive. But the Aussies (except Xander) still have more trouble getting good grips.
Just thinking about that...
I think you bring up an excellent point here, Erin!
I think a big part of it might have to do with what these dogs are currently being bred for. Even if you have an Aussie that wasn't "bred" to herd, they are still very widely used for herding today - so that blood is still there. On the other hand, mals, GSD's, and Dutchies are sometimes bred for herding, but you see more bred for work (not saying you don't have any bred for herding, but MORE are bred for PP type work) - so that is the blood that is most common.
Nipping is very common in herders, which is evident to anyone who has a mal and a young child! And even our dogs still do a nippy thing...we have to laugh, but when Jue, Cy, Nemo, or Nisha is loving on us, they'll nip (usually our chins)...that's actually one reason I don't have a lot of people socialize with Nemo or Nisha (people who don't know that they're not being mean, would be un-nerved by that)...
But, I also think there is a difference in how they are raised. I wonder if you take an Aussie that was bred to high drive parents, and was bred to work, and start that Aussie as a puppy, could you develop that grip? I only bring that up b/c I see all the work that goes into raising a mal, Dutchie puppy to make it a strong PP/sport dog. As puppies, we are teaching them that biting is fun, full grips are good, they have to counter, and they have to hang on. And dogs that don't get that foundation may still do the work, but don't excel at it (I look at Dru for this - she bites, she makes an excellent PP dog, but she really isn't full enough to do sport - and she doesn't have the intensity - but she also didn't have the same foundation as our other dogs)...
The reason I bring up the training aspect of it is because of Sacha. Let's face it, as a lab, she was never meant to do bitework, in fact, by nature she should have a soft mouth. But, she had a ton of drive, and we used what she WAS bred for (retrieving) to get her to bite. Then, we worked on the fundamentals: biting hard, biting full, countering, etc to get her to actually do it. Like I said before, she'll never bite as hard as the mals, but she will hold on, and she will counter...
So, I wonder if it's some combination of nature vs. nurture here...