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Postby DemoDick » January 17th, 2009, 6:19 pm

I want my dog to actively fight while on the grip. If I find myself in a situation where I need him to engage for real, the last thing I'm worried about is lawsuits. I'm more worried about going home alive.

I don't think too many guys are going to be able to get him off a live bite, even when he's shaking with his whole body. :)

Police dogs are a different matter. The goal is apprehension, not trauma to the bad guy. But I'd still want them to understand that there are other options besides the arms and legs. To each his own.

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Postby DemoDick » January 17th, 2009, 6:34 pm

Also, Alyssa is correct in pointing out that different breeds have different "fighting styles" (Greg's Pit Rusty, for example). That's one of the reasons those of us with Pits and other Bull breeds have more difficulty finding decoys to work with.

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Postby katiek0417 » January 17th, 2009, 7:33 pm

DemoDick wrote:Also, Alyssa is correct in pointing out that different breeds have different "fighting styles" (Greg's Pit Rusty, for example). That's one of the reasons those of us with Pits and other Bull breeds have more difficulty finding decoys to work with.

Demo Dick


That was me, also, Demo....that's why I brought up Rusty
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Postby SisMorphine » January 17th, 2009, 7:59 pm

All I did was point out that my dogs would meet an untimely death if they didn't death shake a decoy :|

;)

And you know, I have seen some dogs do the shake and it is part of a hectic bite, but most of the bully breeds I've seen do shake, and they aren't necessarily hectic about it. But hey, Brit, look at Bandit. I would say that dog is mature and very serious about his work, but he will still shake the decoy.
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Postby Mickle » January 17th, 2009, 8:25 pm

yep he shakes like crazy...he shook me right around in circles ;)
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Postby SisMorphine » January 17th, 2009, 8:31 pm

Mickle wrote:yep he shakes like crazy...he shook me right around in circles ;)

Oh yes, I remember the hysterical giggling coming from the shoeless decoy ;)
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Postby DemoDick » January 17th, 2009, 9:15 pm

katiek0417 wrote:
DemoDick wrote:Also, Alyssa is correct in pointing out that different breeds have different "fighting styles" (Greg's Pit Rusty, for example). That's one of the reasons those of us with Pits and other Bull breeds have more difficulty finding decoys to work with.

Demo Dick


That was me, also, Demo....that's why I brought up Rusty


That's why I brought up that you brought up Rusty.

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Postby Mickle » January 18th, 2009, 8:47 am

I love decoying...even without shoes! ;) I think he could bite me now and shake and I prolly wouldnt end up spinning in circles laughing hysterically! ;)
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Postby TinaMartin » January 19th, 2009, 10:14 am

Awesome replies to read through! Thanks everyone.
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Postby TheRedQueen » January 19th, 2009, 12:29 pm

SisMorphine wrote:And you know, I have seen some dogs do the shake and it is part of a hectic bite, but most of the bully breeds I've seen do shake, and they aren't necessarily hectic about it. But hey, Brit, look at Bandit. I would say that dog is mature and very serious about his work, but he will still shake the decoy.


Score hasn't done bitework, but his bites on his basketball tug in flyball are intense...and he LOVES to shake. It's calculated though...he shakes when he KNOWS I'm not paying full attention...and he can shake without having to put too much effort into the tug. He waits until there is slack in the tug, and then does a full body shake...trying to rip it out my hands. First time he did that, I heard my neck pop, he twisted MY entire body with the shake...I had whiplash symptoms for a week or two afterwards. :shock: He does it differently than the Aussies which like to do a quick head shake and grumble and growl the entire time. Score just waits and then does a huge alligator death roll type of shake. It often ends up whapping me in the legs with the basketball too...ouch.
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Postby katiek0417 » January 19th, 2009, 12:41 pm

TheRedQueen wrote:
SisMorphine wrote:And you know, I have seen some dogs do the shake and it is part of a hectic bite, but most of the bully breeds I've seen do shake, and they aren't necessarily hectic about it. But hey, Brit, look at Bandit. I would say that dog is mature and very serious about his work, but he will still shake the decoy.


Score hasn't done bitework, but his bites on his basketball tug in flyball are intense...and he LOVES to shake. It's calculated though...he shakes when he KNOWS I'm not paying full attention...and he can shake without having to put too much effort into the tug. He waits until there is slack in the tug, and then does a full body shake...trying to rip it out my hands. First time he did that, I heard my neck pop, he twisted MY entire body with the shake...I had whiplash symptoms for a week or two afterwards. :shock: He does it differently than the Aussies which like to do a quick head shake and grumble and growl the entire time. Score just waits and then does a huge alligator death roll type of shake. It often ends up whapping me in the legs with the basketball too...ouch.


Nemo is a mal, but when I first got him, he was really brutal with shaking...not on the grip, but once you let him "win." I've worked really hard to get him to not do that, and now he's to the point where when he "wins" he brings it right to me to wait for me to cradle him...Cradling is a method you can use to calm the dog down once they have the object...basically, you cradle the head in one arm, while lightly petting him with the other...

But, Erin, I think you illustrate a big difference between Score who is part pit, and a herder...

Just to add one more type of dog into the mix...Sacha...she's a lab...she acts much more like a herder when she bites (calm and full); however, she never bites as hard as the mals, and she won't carry if she wins (no matter how much we've tried to train her to carry)...
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Postby TheRedQueen » January 19th, 2009, 1:16 pm

Just had a thought...do you think, as I'm inclined to do...that there is a definite difference between herding dogs like Aussies, BCs, etc that are still used more for herding...and herding breeds (mals, dutchies, even GSDs) that are used more for protection type sports? The last time I was out herding, the folks that had the mals and GSDs were having more trouble with their dogs...trying to get them to not eat the sheep. :rolleyes2: Where as I have a harder time getting a hard bite out of my Aussies. Xander has a good bite, he'll bite hard and true...and will hang on even when being swung around by my 6'4" BIL (he used to love that game). The Aussies (meaning mine)...esp. Inara tend to re-bite, and do lots of little nipping bites. Biting is acceptable in herding, to some extent...but you don't want them to be bloodying the sheep or cow!

Inara has a nice tug drive, but she'll come up the tug at you...or nail your thigh as she re-positions... :shock: I have a bruise from Friday night when she nailed me in flyball. Ripley loves to tug, but only uses the front of his mouth...and does a LOT of shaking (as does Inara). Sawyer does lots of little tugs...and is very gentle (for John). For all my guys, I trained them with them being tied to a solid post, and teased them with the tug, ripped it away, let them win, etc...building tug drive. But the Aussies (except Xander) still have more trouble getting good grips.

Just thinking about that...
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Postby katiek0417 » January 19th, 2009, 1:35 pm

TheRedQueen wrote:Just had a thought...do you think, as I'm inclined to do...that there is a definite difference between herding dogs like Aussies, BCs, etc that are still used more for herding...and herding breeds (mals, dutchies, even GSDs) that are used more for protection type sports? The last time I was out herding, the folks that had the mals and GSDs were having more trouble with their dogs...trying to get them to not eat the sheep. :rolleyes2: Where as I have a harder time getting a hard bite out of my Aussies. Xander has a good bite, he'll bite hard and true...and will hang on even when being swung around by my 6'4" BIL (he used to love that game). The Aussies (meaning mine)...esp. Inara tend to re-bite, and do lots of little nipping bites. Biting is acceptable in herding, to some extent...but you don't want them to be bloodying the sheep or cow!

Inara has a nice tug drive, but she'll come up the tug at you...or nail your thigh as she re-positions... :shock: I have a bruise from Friday night when she nailed me in flyball. Ripley loves to tug, but only uses the front of his mouth...and does a LOT of shaking (as does Inara). Sawyer does lots of little tugs...and is very gentle (for John). For all my guys, I trained them with them being tied to a solid post, and teased them with the tug, ripped it away, let them win, etc...building tug drive. But the Aussies (except Xander) still have more trouble getting good grips.

Just thinking about that...


I think you bring up an excellent point here, Erin!

I think a big part of it might have to do with what these dogs are currently being bred for. Even if you have an Aussie that wasn't "bred" to herd, they are still very widely used for herding today - so that blood is still there. On the other hand, mals, GSD's, and Dutchies are sometimes bred for herding, but you see more bred for work (not saying you don't have any bred for herding, but MORE are bred for PP type work) - so that is the blood that is most common.

Nipping is very common in herders, which is evident to anyone who has a mal and a young child! And even our dogs still do a nippy thing...we have to laugh, but when Jue, Cy, Nemo, or Nisha is loving on us, they'll nip (usually our chins)...that's actually one reason I don't have a lot of people socialize with Nemo or Nisha (people who don't know that they're not being mean, would be un-nerved by that)...

But, I also think there is a difference in how they are raised. I wonder if you take an Aussie that was bred to high drive parents, and was bred to work, and start that Aussie as a puppy, could you develop that grip? I only bring that up b/c I see all the work that goes into raising a mal, Dutchie puppy to make it a strong PP/sport dog. As puppies, we are teaching them that biting is fun, full grips are good, they have to counter, and they have to hang on. And dogs that don't get that foundation may still do the work, but don't excel at it (I look at Dru for this - she bites, she makes an excellent PP dog, but she really isn't full enough to do sport - and she doesn't have the intensity - but she also didn't have the same foundation as our other dogs)...

The reason I bring up the training aspect of it is because of Sacha. Let's face it, as a lab, she was never meant to do bitework, in fact, by nature she should have a soft mouth. But, she had a ton of drive, and we used what she WAS bred for (retrieving) to get her to bite. Then, we worked on the fundamentals: biting hard, biting full, countering, etc to get her to actually do it. Like I said before, she'll never bite as hard as the mals, but she will hold on, and she will counter...

So, I wonder if it's some combination of nature vs. nurture here...
"Rumor has it, compulsion is evil."

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Nisha CGC, PDC, PSA TC, PSA 1 - Crazy Malinois
Drusilla SLUT- Pet
Nemo - Dual-Purpose Narcotics
Cy TC, PSA 1, PSA 2, 2009 PSA Level 3 National Champion
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