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Postby TinaMartin » January 16th, 2009, 4:52 pm

Thanks Demo!
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Postby SisMorphine » January 16th, 2009, 4:55 pm

I do believe someplace on my slowly dying laptop I have a video of BritneyP's hubby decoying for a dog and you can hear him say "And now he has my balls." :giggle:

Crotch Shot!!
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:D
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Postby TheRedQueen » January 16th, 2009, 5:03 pm

Hahahahaha...this just makes me so happy.

I'm not sure why, as this type of thing generally doesn't amuse me. :crazy2:
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Postby pocketpit » January 16th, 2009, 5:38 pm

Question from the idiot. What would you guys say is the best way to train a dog to bite in more than one spot to get a better bite on an evasive decoy? Would you work the dog randomly for the bite or would you teach it to target on several spots at different points in training? Dont know if what I am saying makes any sense but I think you guys can get the gist of what I am asking.


Not only do you introduce the dog to other target areas like Demo mentioned but once they are comfortable with the targeting you "show" them an esquive move prior to them reaching the decoy so that they can learn where to target under certain circumstances. The distance and speed at which the esquive is made increases as the dog's skill level increases. You can't train for every move but you increase your odds of a better targeting dog and less points lost.
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Postby BritneyP » January 16th, 2009, 7:41 pm

SisMorphine wrote:I do believe someplace on my slowly dying laptop I have a video of BritneyP's hubby decoying for a dog and you can hear him say "And now he has my balls." :giggle:


True statement! :wink: I believe that was Foobam, FRIII. :wink:

Hmm... Cruiser is being trained to target the upper leg exclusively... perhaps as he matures and starts working on a suit, he will consider some crotch shots. :mrgreen: :wink:
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Postby katiek0417 » January 16th, 2009, 10:19 pm

Tina Martin wrote:Question from the idiot. What would you guys say is the best way to train a dog to bite in more than one spot to get a better bite on an evasive decoy? Would you work the dog randomly for the bite or would you teach it to target on several spots at different points in training? Dont know if what I am saying makes any sense but I think you guys can get the gist of what I am asking.


This is just my opinion...in police work, it's okay to have your dog biting anywhere. Why? Because the goal is to apprehend. However, teaching a bicep or leg (or even back of the shoulder for an escape) will tend to immobilize. Also, when you have a dog that will target the chest, you run the risk of the dog getting hurt/jammed. The reason is because a lot of times it's like the dog is hitting a brick wall...
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Postby Leslie H » January 16th, 2009, 10:39 pm

Image

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Sometimes I trained with a woman w/a couple bandogs, 90# or so. One of her dogs (who had very hard bites) got a fair amount of Matt along w/the suit when he was teaching it the crotch bite. We were laughing so hard she couldn't tell the dog to out. I used to ask Matt what, in his life experiences, made him want to wave his crotch at a biting dog in the first place.
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Postby Jenn » January 16th, 2009, 10:49 pm

:giggle:
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Postby BritneyP » January 17th, 2009, 1:19 am

katiek0417 wrote:
Also, when you have a dog that will target the chest, you run the risk of the dog getting hurt/jammed. The reason is because a lot of times it's like the dog is hitting a brick wall...


Yes, because a bad guy isn't going to be wearing a bite suit, and unless they weigh in excess of 300#, there ain't gonna be much to grab onto. :wink:

I dislike encouraging center mass targeting on the upper body...
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Postby katiek0417 » January 17th, 2009, 2:23 am

BritneyP wrote:
katiek0417 wrote:
Also, when you have a dog that will target the chest, you run the risk of the dog getting hurt/jammed. The reason is because a lot of times it's like the dog is hitting a brick wall...


Yes, because a bad guy isn't going to be wearing a bite suit, and unless they weigh in excess of 300#, there ain't gonna be much to grab onto. :wink:

I dislike encouraging center mass targeting on the upper body...


And even in some bitesuits, like Demanets, which are more fitted, and don't have nearly as much padding in the chest area, this can be an issue lol...I've seen dogs hit the chest in trials, and I cringe when I see it (and from what I hear, it's not fun from a decoy's standpoint, either)....
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Postby TheRedQueen » January 17th, 2009, 9:49 am

:dance: This thread makes me happy!
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Postby Marinepits » January 17th, 2009, 10:02 am

Leslie H wrote: I used to ask Matt what, in his life experiences, made him want to wave his crotch at a biting dog in the first place.


:lol3:
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Postby Hoyden » January 17th, 2009, 11:56 am

Leslie H wrote:
Sometimes I trained with a woman w/a couple bandogs, 90# or so. One of her dogs (who had very hard bites) got a fair amount of Matt along w/the suit when he was teaching it the crotch bite. We were laughing so hard she couldn't tell the dog to out. I used to ask Matt what, in his life experiences, made him want to wave his crotch at a biting dog in the first place.



:spit: LMAO LMAO LMAO
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Postby Mickle » January 17th, 2009, 1:21 pm

My dutchie was doing crotch bites thursday night...If only I had my camera! This thread also makes me happy ;)
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Postby DemoDick » January 17th, 2009, 1:55 pm

Regarding chest/back bites:

For a sport dog, he should be taught to bite whatever is appropriate for that sport.

For a dog who will be expected to take real bites, I would teach him arm/leg bites first, but we would eventually teach him torso bites too. Real scenarios are dynamic and fast and I want the dog to understand that the WHOLE bad guy is fair game. I don't want him waiting for a bite that he has been taught when there are other ones available. I want to give him as many options as possible. In most real scenarios the dog will end up on an arm or leg anyway, but you never know.

A practical biting dog should take the first available bite, and bite as deep and hard as possible while shaking the snot out of the bad guy. Sometimes crude, but definitely effective.

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Postby BritneyP » January 17th, 2009, 4:12 pm

My husband's dog is as real as it gets and he shakes very little while in a grip. His grips are full, calm and crushing. I don't necessarily think a real life apprehension should involve any shaking, per say. Shaking is essentially the killing of the prey, and I think a real life biting dog will be working primarily in defense once in that particular situation. I would think it would tend to cause a lot more damage, which for a law enforcement stand point, is not what you're trying to do.

Now, maybe a PP dog is a different story, but then again, people are so sue happy these days, I don't think I'd want that out of my PP dog either. :|
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Postby SisMorphine » January 17th, 2009, 4:15 pm

I prefer my dogs to shake . . . keeps the bad guy on his toes. Plus I think if I didn't have bulldogs who shook their decoy/bad guy I would have to cap 'em :biggun:

;)
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Postby mnp13 » January 17th, 2009, 4:24 pm

SisMorphine wrote:I prefer my dogs to shake . . . keeps the bad guy on his toes

Quite literally!
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Postby BritneyP » January 17th, 2009, 5:03 pm

the shaking may seem cool in training, but like I said, in real life you don't want your dog thrashing someone around during an apprehension. Dogs biting for real isn't exactly fun and games.

Also, typically, a dog will thrash during training and otherwise, much less as they mature and become a bit more serious and intense in the bitework.
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Postby katiek0417 » January 17th, 2009, 5:54 pm

BritneyP wrote:My husband's dog is as real as it gets and he shakes very little while in a grip. His grips are full, calm and crushing. I don't necessarily think a real life apprehension should involve any shaking, per say. Shaking is essentially the killing of the prey, and I think a real life biting dog will be working primarily in defense once in that particular situation. I would think it would tend to cause a lot more damage, which for a law enforcement stand point, is not what you're trying to do.

Now, maybe a PP dog is a different story, but then again, people are so sue happy these days, I don't think I'd want that out of my PP dog either. :|


I agree, Brit...we've been working very hard to break Nemo of this habit...and keep him calm in his grips...

Personally, I would much rather have a dog that can bite full and crushing and still continue to counter continuously...this will subdue someone just fine...

However, this is one thing that Greg has noticed to be different with pits - he said that his old dog Rusty used to shake - and this was his way of countering...so, it could be a difference in the dogs.

But, pits typically aren't used in police work...instead, you see mals, GSD's, and herders, and the emphasis with them does seem to be fuller, calmer bites...with intended targets (biceps and/or legs) as well as a lot of man orientation - Brit, I'm sure that this has been true in Jack's training, right?

Also, to add one more thing that greg just brought up...when dogs shake, they tend to lose the grip to the front of the teeth...sure, they might do more tearing damage, but the front of the mouth isn't where the pressure comes from....calm full grips bring more pressure (think of how a nutcracker works)...
"Rumor has it, compulsion is evil."

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