New Puppies

[cheekymunkee]

Listen, so many things get twisted in online forums. Aside from the fact that people look to jump on Karen for her past opinions of others. I know Karen personally. I have faith that she will do the right thing. If you don't believe so, so be it. BUt I felt the need to express myself on her behalf. This turned into a Romeo thing when demo felt the need to know who I was. I know how easy it is to be the object of witch-hunts and attacks. But either way, the majority can't see past the nose on their own face. My opinions mean nothing to those that don't care. But I still felt like I should speak on Karen behalf.

Dude, YOU are the one who kept asking US if we know who you are....over & over & over. Get over yourself. And do me a favor & read your own posts will ya?

[cheekymunkee]

Cheeky,
not sure how purebred has anything to do with it. I mostly argued on there. I got my knowledge from many places but a message board wasn't one of them.

Nothing left to say. YOu guys have it all covered. I said my piece. I leave you all to your banter.

What? You gonna tuck tail & run now? Typical

[madremissy]

What have you done so magical debby?
My dogs have accomplishments. They speak for themselves.
So whether or not you or anyone else feel that holds any weight, isn't really an issue. I spoke up just like the rest of you, I just spoke from another place.

Hmmm so because a judge has hung a blue ribbon on a dog you own..that accomplishment is the greatest of any? Really?? Dude you place way too much weight on the ability of a dog to show well.

Accomplishments come in many ways...me...I do my damndest to keep them from being killed...you keep your ribbons...I'll keep them alive. That puts me in a fairly unique position to have a problem with a litter that is known to carry such a serious potential fault - since guess what I and folks in my job will get to euthanize them (and yes some of them and their offspring will end up in public shelters - it is inevitable with breeders like Karen out there)

So you jump up and down and you talk about how you show and you chat about how you've allowed fights to occur (and yep you allow it since it's a relatively easy thing to avoid in your own home with your own dogs) and you talk about judges and defend poor breeding. Me I'll just go about my daily life of saving lives of dogs that have done nothing more wrong than be born Pit Bull.

That is it in a nutshell for me.
Thank you Diana.

[DemoDick]

Airwalk, please do research before you type. My dogs have spoken for them selves. MY 2x national grand was also the first to be a total dog. I have several dogs doing great things in weight pull, agility (akc) herding, carting, therapy etc....

My dog does my tax return and has found deductions that no one knew existed.

Demo Dick

[BIGDOG2594]

OK, last post
Personally I controlled 95% of what left my house. I didn't allow my dogs to be part of the overpopulation. I made sure I spoke and tried to help others. I went past the conformation ring. I helped with the Nationals for a long time. Hell, i have done a lot of the logos floating around.

But I am talking about how you guys condemn yet have never bred, or been faced with some of the scenarios that occur.
Either way, it is all really pointless. My, nor your opinions matter and the breed will continue to be ruined.

[DemoDick]

But I am talking about how you guys condemn yet have never bred, or been faced with some of the scenarios that occur.

We are condemning hypocrisy, not breeding.

Either way, it is all really pointless. My, nor your opinions matter and the breed will continue to be ruined.

Because people talk the talk, but can't walk the walk.

Demo Dick

[SvcDogSawyer]

OK, last post

Today is getting better.

[cheekymunkee]

OK, last post
Personally I controlled 95% of what left my house. I didn't allow my dogs to be part of the overpopulation. I made sure I spoke and tried to help others. I went past the conformation ring. I helped with the Nationals for a long time. Hell, i have done a lot of the logos floating around.

But I am talking about how you guys condemn yet have never bred, or been faced with some of the scenarios that occur.
Either way, it is all really pointless. My, nor your opinions matter and the breed will continue to be ruined.

AGAIN, I ask what have you done beside prance around the ring & breed a dog or two? Nationals is just a big prancing around the ring dog show. If I attended a dog show would that make me 'somebody"???? Oh gawd I HOPE so! I've ALWAYS wanted to be "some body".

[demolitionic]

demolitionic,
I repeat, what have you done? I have bred, trained, shown. I have dealt with accidents and many other things that come with dog breeding. I have been a member of the National Org for 10 years. I traveled with judges and breeders with 30+ years experience. Your only talent seems to be weak insults.

I have been the home for the dogs from litters like Karen's.

[demolitionic]

Look, first off, would I have bred the litter? No. Would karen of bred the litter? NO. IT WAS AN ACCIDENT. For you guys to judge how it should be handled when none of you have the experience to is bull and it stems from Karen being judgmental about others breedings' over the years.

HOw many of you have had a litter of 8-12 pups and kept 80% of them till they were at least 4 months so that you could spay or neuter them? HOw about letting the pups go on limited papers or stipulations in a contract that requires the dog be spayed or neutered before receiving papers? Cmon, you guys aren't even remotely realistic.

Mine wasn't 8-12. It was 14.

And I wasn't the asshole that allowed the irresponsible litter. I don't give a flyingfuck who you traveled with hoss, you're still ignorant and have the reading comprehension level of a second grader.

[airwalk]

AGAIN, I ask what have you done beside prance around the ring & breed a dog or two? Nationals is just a big prancing around the ring dog show. If I attended a dog show would that make me 'somebody"???? Oh gawd I HOPE so! I've ALWAYS wanted to be "some body".

Deb you'll always be "somebody" to me....and please stay away from the show ring I like you just the way you are.

[cheekymunkee]

Thank you Diana, I will take THAT over a stupid ass dog show ANY day.

[amazincc]

amazin,
What would I of done.... well, I would of got the shot and ended the potential pregnancy. BUt they aren't my dogs nor my decision. All I am saying is she has the right to evaluate her situation and make the best possible decision. That is what I am defending. If you think Karen is the end all of the breed you are lost. There is so much garbage out there and crap going on it would spin your heads. I defended a friends right to make her choices. That is all. We are all different and come from different place and experiences. BUt either way, it really wont make a difference.

Believe me... I don't know Karen at all except from what she has written in this thread. I definitely don't think she's the end all of the breed, but she is contributing in her own way.
I was owned by a dog from a "breeder" (using the term very loosely and w/disdain, by the way) who had an accidental litter, and none of the pups were the better for it. My boy was a beautiful, gorgeous specimen... but he had some serious issues, and life with him was anything but easy. I can't, in all honesty, say that I wish he hadn't been born because he was my heart dog, but - I had him neutered to prevent any "oops" litters in the future, and so he wouldn't pass his issues on to any pups, accidental or on purpose.
We never accomplished anything in the way of competitions/showings/etc., but we did accomplish "life", meaning he was well cared for and loved despite having "inherited" some crappy genes. He turned out to be a HUGE commitment and he was a problem dog in the truest sense of the word.
So, speaking from my personal experience with a dog who should've never been born in the first place... what Karen is doing is irresponsible, to say the least.
And you, as her friend AND as a breeder yourself, shouldn't defend "her" right as much as you should be concerned about this litter and the future of the resulting pups. BLIND and INTACT pups at that.
A good breeder should always do what's in the best interest of the breed as a whole, which means that "accidental" pups should not be placed in homes that may, or may NOT, make sure that this litter does not procreate in the future.

And how do dogs get into fights, how about breaking out of crates, getting through doors etc......sorry I don't own shells. My dogs are pitbulls.

Sorry... my boy was not a shell by any stretch of the imagination. He was ALL Pit Bull, and then some.
He never broke out of the crate OR got through the door. I took precautions.

[cheekymunkee]

I just showed one of my "shell of an APBT" this picture. He said " mmmmmm, looks tasty".

[TinaMartin]

I just showed one of my "shell of an APBT" this picture. He said " mmmmmm, looks tasty".

Thats cause it has garnish.

[Leslie H]

Joe, you're so nice in person, and such an ass on the internet. You've bred some very nice dogs. Willow and Vegas both have strong, friendly temperaments, they have nice movement, they're athletic and talented. They are terrific breed ambassadors. You should be proud that you bred them, and that they are owned by people who have allowed them to achieve. If I recall correctly, you have spayed and neutered dogs that didn't meet your health, temperament, or structure standards.
I know you like Karen's dogs better than I do, so I'm sure you don't have the structural concerns I have. And I can't remember if you saw Rowdy at his squirrelliest. He is considerably better. I know, I handled him a couple times at Nationals this fall when Laura, Karen's daughter, was pulling him, and couldn't really control him. (Laura is very tiny, he's not very trained). He was able to cope w/me holding his harness, moving his body, and hanging on to him, w/out being overwhelmed, but he was less than thrilled. During his squirrelly stage, he couldn't handle being gone over by a judge or some unfamiliar people. To me, that cut him right out of the potential gene pool.
So, in my opinion, even w/out the day blindness issue, this breeding has the potential to produce dogs that are temperamentally compromised, as well as structurally mediocre (my opinion). Their conformation shouldn't make it so they can't perform as working dogs, but the potential temperaments make that questionable. In fact, worse case scenario, they might not even has adequate temperaments as pets, especially if the weakness I saw in Rowdy is carried by Dilly (I like her temperament). I don't think these are pups that should be whelped. If Karen wants to whelp and cull, I don't see anything in this breeding worth the risk of being incorporated into the gene pool. So, Karen should keep them, evaluate them and speuter them, if she wants to have this litter. IMO, anything less is unethical.
Joe, I like you personally, though you make me cringe when you post. I respect your desire to defend a friend. However, when you're loyal to this friend, you know you're turning your back on the breed you've been loyal to for a long time.

[KJS]

Call trolling all you want. Do you even own a pitbull?

A troll is a troll by any definition if all they do is come here to post in order to stir up the pot...so you are a what now?...lemme hear you

do I even own a pitbull?..why YES I DO ...very happy about it thank you...does he do shows or weight pull or father any fantastic puppies? NO HE DOESNT...and I am VERY happy about that too thank you very much for asking...

I am los on the side of the fence where my dogs do not manange to break out of locked cages and through locked doors to get into trouble while I am out...its called correct management or even common sence..you can buy a book about it if you like

Karen is obviously unwell at this time and we can only hope that when she feels better she will come back to reality and do whats right...

[SisMorphine]

I am NOT defending anyone here, I'm just pointing out that even a dog who is well managed, well trained, well socialized etc can bust through a crate. Blue busted through 2 at Michelle and Demo's over the weekend, and since I've had him he's busted out of crates a good 15 times. Some dogs are determined and strong and unless you have $600+ to spend on a tiger cage it's always finger-crossing luck as to if the dog will still be in his crate when you get home. I had a foster home, once, when I worked with rescue who's personal dog broke out of his crate and ATE THROUGH A DOOR to get to the foster dog crated in the livingroom (and that was just because he wanted to play with him, imagine if he was severely aggressive and wanted to kill him?)! Crate busting happens, and IMO that alone doesn't make you an irresponsible person. Whelping a litter of pups with potential severe issues (apparently now that I read more both healthwise and temperament wise), or at least not speutering them immediately, is irresponsible. Your dogs breaking out of crates, not so much.

[TheRedQueen]

I am NOT defending anyone here, I'm just pointing out that even a dog who is well managed, well trained, well socialized etc can bust through a crate.

Though I have not had dogs busting out of crates, I know it does happen to the best folks. Friends of mine are currently borrowing my Tiger Cage for their intact male dog (with NO intact females in the house). This is the same cage that Katrina borrowed for a while for her mals. My friends dog is breaking out repeatedly of vari-kennels and wire crates. What breed? Whippet. Little, under a year old whippet.

[blabsforbullies]

Aside from the medical implications that I have already commented on, I will say this as a personal message. I do not know Karen, nor do I know the majority of the forum memebers. All I can go by is what is posted here, and that is the nature of the "forum beast". No, we don't know how Karen will handle this, as she has not returned to this thread. I do understand the need for friends to defend each other, and maybe they know more information than we do. I hope so, because the limited information posted here leads to the belief that this situation will end (or not end, as the case may be), very, very badly and unethically, to say the very least.

I do not judge others by the mistakes that they make. We all make them. I form my opinions based on how people HANDLE their mistakes.