How long...

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Postby Malli » April 5th, 2006, 2:14 pm

... Do they pout for after a prong is introduced into their lives?

Oscar is full of cautious and dirty looks and does not seem to have the same 'gusto' on walks...
Its like its one long temper tantrum :|

He is a bit of a drama queen, large sighs, and other little tantrums if he doesn't get his way on occaision...

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Postby katiek0417 » April 7th, 2006, 2:09 pm

Do you keep it on Oscar all the time?

I know there's a debate, but once I put it on Sacha...she kept it on....I also kept it on her for about a week or two before actually using it for a correction...of course, Sacha was in a plastic crate (so I didn't have to worry about her wearing it while in there)....

Introducing the e-collar was a different story....

One of the things I did with Sacha with the pinch (before using it for corrections) was I would feed her out of my hand and just play with the chain of the pinch collar...make noise with it, etc...that way she wasn't as afraid of it...
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Postby Chris Fraize » April 7th, 2006, 2:39 pm

Mali,

Your dog is confused, not pouting. :|

This is just a suggestion, but I would remove the prong collar for now and learn more about dog behavior. The prong may help some issues in the short term but seems to be breaking the trust between you and your dog, which will create more problems in the long term.

You seem to see the confusion as "pouting" because all you have a "human" reference to it. In other words, pouting is what it looks like to you but I would see it and the dog sees it as confusion.

If the correction is understood the dog won’t appear to pout or remain confused.

The way I always try to train when using positive punishment or negative reinforcement is to end with success and never end with a correction. The dog needs to end by understanding the lesson. This does not sound (read) like it is the case with your dog.

It also seems that the dog is respecting the collar and does not respect you. The collar is NOT a magic wand. It should be put on the dog at least an hour before you train and taken off an hour after you train. It should never be a struggle to get it on. If it is a struggle to put the collar on the dog, then you should back up and teach the dog that putting the collar on is a "good thing" or at least "not a bad thing". Do step #1 before you do step #101.

Also learn about level of correction and timing. Correcting too hard or making a correction that is poorly timed will only serve to confuse the dog further.

This is extremely hard to convey over the Internet in text form. So seek the help of a qualified trainer that you are comfortable with.

I hope this helps. Hang in there! Mistakes are the best way to learn! You will get there!

Safe training,
Chris Fraize
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Postby Hoyden » April 7th, 2006, 3:25 pm

Chris Fraize wrote:Mali,

Also learn about level of correction and timing. Correcting too hard or making a correction that is poorly timed will only serve to confuse the dog further.

This is extremely hard to convey over the Internet in text form. So seek the help of a qualified trainer that you are comfortable with.

I hope this helps. Hang in there! Mistakes are the best way to learn! You will get there!

Safe training,
Chris Fraize


I know this is going to sound really silly - but it worked.

I have balance issues and had a hard time getting the timing on the corrections right. But how do you practice timing a verbal and leash correction with out a dog??

A BIG stuffed dog! I put a collar on an enormous stuffed St. Bernard dog and practiced timing my verbal and leash corrections with it. I think I dragged around for about a week.

But it worked.
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Postby Chris Fraize » April 7th, 2006, 3:27 pm

Yep. (and not silly at all!)

Safe training,
Chris Fraize
Last edited by Chris Fraize on April 7th, 2006, 3:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Maryellen » April 7th, 2006, 3:28 pm

yep, practice on a stuffy first.. my 3 will go nuts if i evenhit the prong with my hand by accident.. they think they are going somewhere fun, as when i used it i made training a big party so that they got used to them. first i practiced on a stufffy, then i put the prongs on them. didnt do anything, just let them get used to it.. then i slowly introduced the leash, and let them correct them selves for some things, and then worked slowly with them.. now, if i hit one by accident or knock it off the shelf they all race down the stairs and go crazy cause they think they are going out somewhwere special...
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Postby Malli » April 7th, 2006, 4:52 pm

katiek0417 wrote:Do you keep it on Oscar all the time?
I put on 1-2-1 hr before and take it off some times after

I know there's a debate, but once I put it on Sacha...she kept it on....I also kept it on her for about a week or two before actually using it for a correction...of course, Sacha was in a plastic crate (so I didn't have to worry about her wearing it while in there)....

Introducing the e-collar was a different story....

One of the things I did with Sacha with the pinch (before using it for corrections) was I would feed her out of my hand and just play with the chain of the pinch collar...make noise with it, etc...that way she wasn't as afraid of it...
I don't believe he is afraid of the collar at all. It may be a getting used to it period, and he was actually much better on it yesterday for our walk then he had been


Perhaps I have been overreacting to this entire situation, wich I have tended to do lately with everything and Os (he has been sick with skin infections and I think I'm starting to loose my good judgement on what is serious)

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Postby Malli » April 7th, 2006, 5:16 pm

Chris Fraize wrote:Mali,

Your dog is confused, not pouting. :|

This is just a suggestion, but I would remove the prong collar for now and learn more about dog behavior. The prong may help some issues in the short term but seems to be breaking the trust between you and your dog, which will create more problems in the long term.

You seem to see the confusion as "pouting" because all you have a "human" reference to it. In other words, pouting is what it looks like to you but I would see it and the dog sees it as confusion.

If the correction is understood the dog won’t appear to pout or remain confused.

The way I always try to train when using positive punishment or negative reinforcement is to end with success and never end with a correction.

The dog needs to end by understanding the lesson. This does not sound (read) like it is the case with your dog.

I always end our training on a positive note as well

It also seems that the dog is respecting the collar and does not respect you. The collar is NOT a magic wand. It should be put on the dog at least an hour before you train and taken off an hour after you train. It should never be a struggle to get it on. If it is a struggle to put the collar on the dog, then you should back up and teach the dog that putting the collar on is a "good thing" or at least "not a bad thing". Do step #1 before you do step #101.

There is no struggle, its not made a good thing or a bad thing, I just put it on, and go away and do something else. He keeps the collar on about (give or take some minutes) an hour before we use it and about the same time after, or when I am sure he cannot make the connection of events to walking and/or training. Perhaps I didn't make myself clear, the behavior I had seen(as of our walk last night, it seems to be almost gone) had only while he was out on leash, his behavior with the collar on in the house was exactly as it had been.

Also learn about level of correction and timing. Correcting too hard or making a correction that is poorly timed will only serve to confuse the dog further.

I understand corrections and timing. If the timing is off it will not mark the bad behavior and the dog will not understand why he recieved the punishment. I have actually read quite a few books, taken a 3 month dog training program, and have been contemplating the prong for at least a year. Unfortunately there was one time where I did not understand the proper tecnique for corrections and I ended up with a dog who hardened himself to the corrections I was able to make.

This is extremely hard to convey over the Internet in text form. So seek the help of a qualified trainer that you are comfortable with.

The advice I got wich finally convinced me to get him the prong was from a trainer, I asked her if she would be able to do a session with me and him and the prong and she said we'd be fine, that she'd take our money if I wanted, but that we should be able to handle it.

I think I may have conveyed myself as a little more of a novice here than I really am (not to say I don't have a ton to learn). As I mentioned above, his behavior is now getting much better on our walks (I haven't used it in training yet as I wanted to get the strength of the new corrections down in my head before hand); in fact, yesterday, we had multiple encounters with dogs on our walks, wich had typically been almost impossible to control him here and correction were disregarded. The first encounter was not so great, and was reminiscent of what had been going on, the second encounter was awesome, we walked by from about 8 feet away, on a loose lead! There were some intense looks, but a couple of "leave " 's from me and all he did was look (the other dog was as bad as he was, wich of course, makes things worse)

I hope this helps. Hang in there! Mistakes are the best way to learn! You will get there!

Safe training,
Chris Fraize


I just responded to you in the above quote. Again, I think I may have done a disservice to myself. Although I agree with all of your advice, I may have made myself seem a little more behind on tecnique and behavior then I am...

I appreciate the help, it almost seems silly I started this whole thread now :lol

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Postby dogcrazyjen » April 8th, 2006, 11:24 am

I teach leash behavior off leash first, teach position, attention, and heelwork inside. Only when they have that down do I take it to on-leash, then I take it outside. I use a long line and a harness to potty until they understand leashwork, that way they are not set up to fail.
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Postby SisMorphine » April 8th, 2006, 11:30 am

Hoyden wrote:I know this is going to sound really silly - but it worked.

I have balance issues and had a hard time getting the timing on the corrections right. But how do you practice timing a verbal and leash correction with out a dog??

A BIG stuffed dog! I put a collar on an enormous stuffed St. Bernard dog and practiced timing my verbal and leash corrections with it. I think I dragged around for about a week.

But it worked.

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