I am amazed!

Weight pull, Protection, Agility, Flyball... you name it!

Postby dogcrazyjen » April 6th, 2006, 9:12 pm

Oh, and my father was a state trooper for 31 years. I have met dogs and watched PP training first hand. I am very impressed with the training these dogs have. But they were not pit bulls, and I believe the difference in breeds does make a difference in end result. These were dogs that were bred to do police work, not dogs bred for complete human bite inhibition.
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Postby DemoDick » April 7th, 2006, 1:23 am

I'm sorry jen, but I have to agree with Michelle and point out that a lot of your posts indicate a lack of fundamental understanding of dog behavior and drives. Please do not take this as an insult, but statements like the one about PP dogs being unsafe around kids and your description of equipment fixation illustrates this.

My dog does both sport and PP. He's taken hidden sleeve bites and been in a few "real life" encounters where the only thing preventing him from biting was a leash and collar. He is also one of the safest dogs I've ever seen. I have no qualms about his behavior around children. If two kids wanted to duke it out and scream for real he would not take it upon himself to get involved. Of this I am sure.

These were dogs that were bred to do police work, not dogs bred for complete human bite inhibition.


Two problems with this statement. First, unless the police dogs in question were Doberman's, then originally they were not bred for police work (or "man work" to use the dogmen's vernacular). They were bred for herding and "converted" over time. Second, old time dogmen did not breed for 100% bite inhibition as is often claimed. There were plenty of "man biters" in the pit. Our interpretation of "dogmen" is quite a bit romanticized from the real thing. If a dog could win money, his tendency to redirect could be overlooked. Anyone here familiar with Garner's Chinaman?

I am quite willing to make a video to demonstrate how safe Connor is around kids. If you would describe what you would like to see I will record Connor's first time reaction and post it up for everyone to see.

For the record, I've been around this stuff for about four years and would never claim to have seen all that I needed to see. Every day I learn something new. The reason for this is I keep an open mind and will change it if I see sufficient evidence.

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Postby dogcrazyjen » April 7th, 2006, 8:33 am

When I say kids I am speaking of teens, I should have specified. I do not see PP dogs as a threat to young children. it is the older ones who look like adults but still act like children that I have had issues with. My own dogs, who do therapy and are solid with kids, elderly, and in between sometimes react to teens the same way they would to a real threat.

If your dog is trained to ONLY bite on command, I do not see much issue with the dog biting someone unless commanded. However, YOU said the dog needs to be able to percieve a threat without the command, and THIS is where I think there is a safety issue. I am afraid the waters keep muddying as the conversation meanders.

I will state it again. A well trained, on command pit, even though he has intrinsice reward in the bite, is likely never to be a threat to anyone. A pit who is allowed to percieve threats, and who finds intrinsic reward in the act of biting is more questionable. Add in that flaws in training are likely in the average PP dog, and you have a recipe for disaster. How many trainers are going to be as careful and dedicated as you? As much as you can say you educate, you are also role models, and you also have stated there are a lot of psycho PP trainers out there. There is no standard to rate them for the average person, and you can always find people willing to vouche for them.

A few weeks ago I stopped my car when a teen boy was pulling a girl into a car, with shrieks of protest. I would have sworn he was forcing her. They looked at me like I was nuts when they noticed my car stopped. Teens do not follow the normal rules of behavior. Now perhaps your particular dogs are proofed for that. My issue is that if you allow your dog to make his own decisions as to what is a threat, and have taught him to live bite without a command, you better be pretty aware in case he is wrong. You cannot tell me this is never possibility. You may think I know little about training, but I do know you can never train for every outcome, every situation, as they are infinite. You have to do the best you can and hope you have convered enough that there is little risk. Just when you think you have covered everything, God will come in and throw you a new one. No dog is truly bomb proof, they are living creatures.

I have looked at Chris' videos and see dogs who are equiptment fixated. I have never seen yours. I actually would feel better knowing they were equiptment fixated. When the decoy steps over the dog and the dog is taking air shots at the bite suit, that tells me that the bite suit is being used as a distraction and reward for the dog. The decoy is no threat to the dog, the dog knows this. Can you explain to me if I am wrong what drive is being used there?

I did not see equiptment fixation on non-bull breeds when I have seen it live.

Shepherds have been bred to bite for enough generations that they effectively no longer have bite inhibition. Shepherds were bred as war dogs in WWI, nearly 100 years ago. I would prefer the pit not go that direction. In fact if it does, I would start wondering if BSL would maybe be a good idea. They reason they are not dangerous is because of the bite inhibition.

I keep an open mind as well. When I see some real evidence that the general threats I percieve due to using pits in bitework is false, I will change my mind. Unfortunately, you and Chris are two people. It takes hundreds of dogs to make a general conclusion. My dog cut his toe off on a recliner, but that does not mean recliners are evil. There are some dogs who can go through amazing amounts of torture and never bite, but there are many who cannot. The exception does not make a rule. I cannot say one way or the other if you are the exeption or the rule, so it is unproven to me. There are dogs who can do PP work and therapy, and many who cannot. Until I see conclusive, non-anectdotal evidence that pit bulls are cut out for this work and in the average available PP style class do not pose a threat, then I will continue to feel that pits should not be involved in bitework. Then I wish to see that bite work is not being promoted in inner cities due to seeing it done. Then I would like to see that when there are accidents, because there always will be accidents in every breed, that those examples are not being used for BSL. I am fearful our breed will be banned, and this to me is not helping.

Once again, I am not telling you you need to stop. I am telling you I personally do not agree with it.
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Postby DemoDick » April 7th, 2006, 9:34 am

When I say kids I am speaking of teens, I should have specified. I do not see PP dogs as a threat to young children. it is the older ones who look like adults but still act like children that I have had issues with.


That is not what you wrote. You initially wrote about PP and children (as evidenced by your reference to Chris' video showing young kids) Now you're talking about teens.

My own dogs, who do therapy and are solid with kids, elderly, and in between sometimes react to teens the same way they would to a real threat.
(emphasis added)

A PP dog, properly trained, would not do this. In my opinion, a therapy dog should not misinterpret teens horsing around as a "real" threat either.

If your dog is trained to ONLY bite on command, I do not see much issue with the dog biting someone unless commanded. However, YOU said the dog needs to be able to percieve a threat without the command, and THIS is where I think there is a safety issue. I am afraid the waters keep muddying as the conversation meanders.


But I haven't changed what I have been saying. A good PP dog engages on command and has the ability to make the decision to engage without a command. Such a dog is NOT a threat to children, rowdy teens, etc.

As much as you can say you educate, you are also role models, and you also have stated there are a lot of psycho PP trainers out there. There is no standard to rate them for the average person, and you can always find people willing to vouche for them.


Again, there are idiots everywhere. If Bubba thinks protection work is tying his dog out to a fencepost and working him over with a hose, then we have to do our best to educate Bubba. Bubba's not going to learn if no one teaches him. As far as the public is concerned, they are smart enough to see Rumble and Bubba's dog and make an educated decision as to who knows what they're doing.

My issue is that if you allow your dog to make his own decisions as to what is a threat, and have taught him to live bite without a command, you better be pretty aware in case he is wrong.


I agree with this statement. You are absolutely right.

I have looked at Chris' videos and see dogs who are equiptment fixated. I have never seen yours. I actually would feel better knowing they were equiptment fixated. When the decoy steps over the dog and the dog is taking air shots at the bite suit, that tells me that the bite suit is being used as a distraction and reward for the dog.


How can anyone look at such a video and know that the dog is distracted by the suit and not the decoy in it? Rumble also takes what look like cheap shots at Chris when he recalls to heel. He's not nipping at him, he's head butting him. Seeing something first person leaves a lot open for interpretation, video is once removed.

Can you explain to me if I am wrong what drive is being used there?


No, I can't. Dogs don't work in one drive at a time. They think about a lot of things all at once and size up their situation. At least the good ones do. Which video are you talking about?

Shepherds were bred as war dogs in WWI, nearly 100 years ago. I would prefer the pit not go that direction. In fact if it does, I would start wondering if BSL would maybe be a good idea. They reason they are not dangerous is because of the bite inhibition.


It is not accurate to say that Pits are "not dangerous" because of human bite inhibition. They can still be plenty dangerous to other dogs when an irresponsible person picks up the leash. And more and more unsound Pits are being bred in backyards across America because they are not being bred for any working purpose. Work requires the proper temperament for it. Herding requires herding temperament and all that entails, and so does PP. Central to PP temperament is stability, clear headedness, and decision making ability.


Until I see conclusive, non-anectdotal evidence that pit bulls are cut out for this work and in the average available PP style class do not pose a threat, then I will continue to feel that pits should not be involved in bitework.


Give us time.

Then I wish to see that bite work is not being promoted in inner cities due to seeing it done.


Where the bitework is done has nothing to do with the quality of instruction. A good PP trainer who lives is a city is a better choice than Bubba the hose swinger.

I would encourage you to go to a few events (Chris' would be a good start), check out what is being done with Pits in bitework today and continue to learn. At minimum you will be able to make a more informed decision. You may not change your mind and that's fine, but you will certainly see things that you never considered and learning is never a bad thing.

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Postby SisMorphine » April 7th, 2006, 10:08 am

I keep seeing a lot of stuff being said in this thread about breeding in/out bite inhibition. I thought that bite inhibition was something that was taught to them through their mother and their siblings when they were in their first few weeks, not something bred into them.
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Postby dogcrazyjen » April 7th, 2006, 10:39 am

Quote:
When I say kids I am speaking of teens, I should have specified. I do not see PP dogs as a threat to young children. it is the older ones who look like adults but still act like children that I have had issues with.


That is not what you wrote. You initially wrote about PP and children (as evidenced by your reference to Chris' video showing young kids) Now you're talking about teens.



That is why I later specified. I spoke of the kids in one paragraph (Chris' video of the kids on the couch), and then the other I was thinking teens (same video, girl being held and the dog attacking) and said kid's assuming you could read my mind :wink: If video is once removed, then typing is thrice removed, my apologies at not not being specific.

Quote:
My own dogs, who do therapy and are solid with kids, elderly, and in between sometimes react to teens the same way they would to a real threat.
(emphasis added)

A PP dog, properly trained, would not do this. In my opinion, a therapy dog should not misinterpret teens horsing around as a "real" threat either.



I would hope so, but how many proper trainers are out there?

Quote:
If your dog is trained to ONLY bite on command, I do not see much issue with the dog biting someone unless commanded. However, YOU said the dog needs to be able to percieve a threat without the command, and THIS is where I think there is a safety issue. I am afraid the waters keep muddying as the conversation meanders.


But I haven't changed what I have been saying. A good PP dog engages on command and has the ability to make the decision to engage without a command. Such a dog is NOT a threat to children, rowdy teens, etc.


I do not know this. Rowdy teens can mimic the exact situations you train for. Again, the training must be flawless.

Quote:
As much as you can say you educate, you are also role models, and you also have stated there are a lot of psycho PP trainers out there. There is no standard to rate them for the average person, and you can always find people willing to vouche for them.


Again, there are idiots everywhere. If Bubba thinks protection work is tying his dog out to a fencepost and working him over with a hose, then we have to do our best to educate Bubba. Bubba's not going to learn if no one teaches him. As far as the public is concerned, they are smart enough to see Rumble and Bubba's dog and make an educated decision as to who knows what they're doing.


There are a whole lot more trainers who know enough to look like they are qualified and are not. Especially the ones who have only non-bully work expirience and try to use the same exact methods on a bully. Those trainers are the ones who ( I would think) will put out the most dangerous bite dogs. People who give the owner the appearance of training and proofing, but who really do not.


Quote:
My issue is that if you allow your dog to make his own decisions as to what is a threat, and have taught him to live bite without a command, you better be pretty aware in case he is wrong.

I agree with this statement. You are absolutely right.


Does everyone else who does bitework? (and thank you for at least agreeing with SOMETHING I said :D )


Quote:
I have looked at Chris' videos and see dogs who are equiptment fixated. I have never seen yours. I actually would feel better knowing they were equiptment fixated. When the decoy steps over the dog and the dog is taking air shots at the bite suit, that tells me that the bite suit is being used as a distraction and reward for the dog.


How can anyone look at such a video and know that the dog is distracted by the suit and not the decoy in it? Rumble also takes what look like cheap shots at Chris when he recalls to heel. He's not nipping at him, he's head butting him. Seeing something first person leaves a lot open for interpretation, video is once removed.



You are right there, video can be decieving. I never took the heel jumps to be anything other than playing with Chris. However I see a dog who is on a downstay, the decoy walks over the dog who is lying down grinning, and who takes halfhearted 'pot shots' as the decoy walks over him. That dog knows the decoy is not threat, so the idea of him having to get the badguy seems unlikely. He looks exactly to me like my dogs when I proof them by dragging tugs in front of them. I certainly could be wrong, but that is what I see.

Quote:
Can you explain to me if I am wrong what drive is being used there?


No, I can't. Dogs don't work in one drive at a time. They think about a lot of things all at once and size up their situation. At least the good ones do. Which video are you talking about?


You mean you cannot read my mind? Come on, I thought you said you were good? :wink: I was thinking of the last Rumble video where the decoy straddles the dog, and where they do hallway decoy work, haybales, etc. The dog looks to me like the whole thing is a game, and the obedience (for the dog) is in order to get the go ahead to get the decoy. Much as I would use tug as a reward to do agility. In fact, when I use a tug as a reward in flyball, it kicks in some preydrive as well, so as you said, more than one drive may be used. But seeing the latest vid posted today, where Chris was teaching a puppy tug drive, I saw little difference between that and bitesuit work with Rumble in the behavior of the dog. Again, videos can be misleading, so that is what I can see.

Quote:
Shepherds were bred as war dogs in WWI, nearly 100 years ago. I would prefer the pit not go that direction. In fact if it does, I would start wondering if BSL would maybe be a good idea. They reason they are not dangerous is because of the bite inhibition.


It is not accurate to say that Pits are "not dangerous" because of human bite inhibition. They can still be plenty dangerous to other dogs when an irresponsible person picks up the leash. And more and more unsound Pits are being bred in backyards across America because they are not being bred for any working purpose. Work requires the proper temperament for it. Herding requires herding temperament and all that entails, and so does PP. Central to PP temperament is stability, clear headedness, and decision making ability.


Yup, and I DO believe that dogs should have to do something before being bred in order to ensure those abilities. That does not have to mean bitework. Bitework is but one tool to assess that.


Quote:
Until I see conclusive, non-anectdotal evidence that pit bulls are cut out for this work and in the average available PP style class do not pose a threat, then I will continue to feel that pits should not be involved in bitework.


Give us time.


You have all the time in the world, as I certainly am not going anywhere.

Quote:
Then I wish to see that bite work is not being promoted in inner cities due to seeing it done.


Where the bitework is done has nothing to do with the quality of instruction. A good PP trainer who lives is a city is a better choice than Bubba the hose swinger.


I meant that as a generalization for crack house areas, ie gangs of kids trying to look cool and use the dogs as weapons. I should have been more specific. Certainly rural areas have their own set of issues.


I would encourage you to go to a few events (Chris' would be a good start), check out what is being done with Pits in bitework today and continue to learn. At minimum you will be able to make a more informed decision. You may not change your mind and that's fine, but you will certainly see things that you never considered and learning is never a bad thing.


I am always open to learning more things. I will be seeing Chris and you at the Bulympics, and I look forward to talking with you both. I normally am not this combative, but this was set as a debate thread (well, this and the other one), so that is what I am doing. I have my position, and I defend it. If I come across information which I feel changes my position, I will reevaluate it. I come from another board of 3 years in which debate was an everyday occurance. Logical, non-emotive, backed with stats or reason and scoffing of anectdotal evidence. Lack of evidence does not count as evidence. SO I am sorry if I have come across as stubborn, but I am in debate mode. I truly look forward to learning from Chris and you, I know you have far more expirience with pit bulls than I, and certainly with bitework than I do. I have learned, however, that sometimes people with less expirience see things in a different and equally valuable way than those with expirience, which is why I always at least listen to those with less expirience.

Sometimes we get so involved in what we know we cannot see other possibilities.

And sometimes expirience is more valuable than a fresh look.

So I really hope we are OK here. I am not trying to piss anyone off, and if I get to wrapped up in the debate feel free to nudge me back to reality.
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Postby dogcrazyjen » April 7th, 2006, 10:39 am

I have to laugh, the board automatically rewrote 'tinkle' rather than pi$$!Sounds pretty silly.
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Postby Chris Fraize » April 7th, 2006, 10:44 am

Jen,

Great debate! You seem like (read like) someone I would truly enjoy meeting! Thanks for ALL of your views and opinions! You are a skilled deliberator!

Safe training,
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Postby dogcrazyjen » April 7th, 2006, 12:26 pm

Can I tell you I avoided your post until I read the rest of the board, afraid you were going to rip me to shreds! :oops: I really do look forward to meeting you too!
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Postby Chris Fraize » April 7th, 2006, 12:40 pm

Nawwwwww,
You are entitled to your opinion! I'm a big pussycat!

Safe training,
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Postby katiek0417 » April 7th, 2006, 1:59 pm

Romanwild wrote:The difference is training philosophy. The friendly dogs have a off switch the crazy ones don't.



Not necessarily. The dogs that I know are from the same department. They went through the same training, same type of dog, etc, etc...

What is very interesting to me is that being "on the outside looking in" is much different than actually talking to the handlers. Many times we see the "psycho" dogs who can't be turned off. If you talk to the handlers, though, they might tell you a different story.

There is one specific dog who is crazy...we asked if we could pet his dog, and he said no b/c the dog wasn't friendly. Within 5 minutes, he had his kids climbing on the dog, pulling it's ears, and the dog was just SITTING THERE!!! It even looked happy. We asked the officer about this, and he explained that malinois (which is the dog of choice for this dept) are very much pack oriented. His kids are part of this dog's pack...therefore, they can climb on him, etc. However, we, as spectators were not part of the pack...that's where the unfriendliness came in.

Other mals (that went through the same training class as the one I just described) can be loved on, played with...by anyone...until they're "turned on."

So, what was the difference? I didn't realize that many police dogs are bought as adults...they don't come into the police dept as puppies. A majority of the dogs that were socialized by the previous owners/handlers are the ones that can be loved on by other people. A majority of the ones that were bred with the sole purpose of being a police dog (and kept in a kennel, or likewise) are the ones who can't be loved on by people outside "their pack."

Notice I say majority here...it's true, some are just not wired, right....but I've heard this from more than one officer at more than one dept (both of my pups parents are police/military k9's...and both are very friendly, until "turned on." My puppy is just a plain sweety right now (she's still a baby)...but I'm hoping she's like her parents....
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Postby Pitcrew » April 8th, 2006, 1:02 am

I hope this doesn't get too far off topic... but I think its relevant.

I want to put a different perspective on the "bred not to be aggressive towards people" or to "have human bite inhibition" idea.

I believe bite inhibition is about the ability to have self control with your mouth, regardless of stress, situation, or species.

I have seen Vega dispatch a LARGE rat in the chicken coop amongst almost 20 small chicks (the rats will kill and eat chickens as large as a small melon). She does not accidentally (or on purpose) kill chicks. She can retrieve them by mouth unharmed. She respects all livestock introduced to, but will assert herself to whatever level is necessary, to control them... until I tell her to quit. I control her intensity, but I know she has it. She will attempt anything I ask, with trust and control. A dog with less desire, self control, or energy, would not be ideal. A dog with too much desire, less self control, and too much energy would be less than ideal for most working jobs (think of ANY job dogs are used for, and this remains the same). This is what assistance, and seeing eye dogs are BRED for. You can breed to increase control and stability for any type of work. Rescues can be trained and used... but it is such a time, money and effort intensive task to select and train random dogs when we can increase our success percentage by breeding.

Before dogfighting... before bull-baiting... our dog were there. Being used primarily as catch dogs for dangerous livestock. To help with,and protect their owners from large hogs, and cattle.
Selectively breeding for the ability to go after aggressive animals (when told, or when necessary) without fear or hesitation, but in a controlled focused manor, with appropriate respect for their "pack". By "pack" I mean, the farmer wouldn't want a working OR family dog that would randomly attack and destroy livestock.

The farmers (probably more likely the butchers, in the cities) would challenge others with how brave and tenacious their dogs were. Then it became a sport... in addition was the excuse the many made that the baiting made the meat taste better to develop a desire (or need) for a sport that was frowned upon. Since these dogs were used in close proximity to handlers and other stock, it was important that the dogs stayed on task (not redirect onto other animals)... and remain calm and focused. A dog that fights in an energetic frenzy, was much more likely to redirect or snap randomly at anything in the vicinity. Of course this is undesirable. As it was later in dogfighting.

Dog fighting in the early days was not about dog aggression. Many of the dogs that fought were pets, who back then, roamed the neighborhoods and towns (no leash laws). If you read enough historical fighting books, you find it not uncommon that there were good fighting dogs, that were not out-rightly dog aggressive, but when challenged... never backed down.
People (especially trainers) who are exposed to large numbers of dogs with aggression problems, know very well that you only need a serious challenge (or a dog that is unsocialised and has inappropriate social skills to avoid a fight) to provoke a serious fight. Actual aggression is not as important as energy and dominance. If you had a lot of exposure to dog aggression, you would find the real difference between pits and any other dogs that exhibit aggression is not the frequency or ease of starting a fight between dogs, but the intensity and the unwillingness to give up the fight. Those two things made it important that dog be mentally sound and stable. The dogs who had a weak temperament, would back down from a challenge, or behave unpredictably under pressure, were weeded out.

I believe they (breeders) bred out instability in a drivey dog, in general, not 'human aggression'. When fighting dogs were isolated on chains and in confined spaces, and were not evaluated for ANY purpose or temperament other than ability to fight (or look pretty) they became unstable and poorly bred. The people who do this, don't care about, or understand nature.

I don't believe you can inhibit aggression, genetically, towards a specific species.

A wolf that turns on its pack members during taking down a kill, would surely not survive to pass on those genes. Does that mean he is bred to not be wolf aggressive? No. It means he is socially appropriate under context. The same wolf can surely attack (even kill) an intruder from another pack... or also accept a new stranger into the pack. Its appropriate aggression, depending on situation. An animal must be confident, and stable, in nature. Unfortunately in the domestic world, the same rules do not necessarily apply. We want to save, protect, encourage, and love things that just aren't 'normal' because we don't understand canine behavior.
A retriever that hunts with too much intensity, and not enough calm and focus will probably be to rough on the birds. You may be able to train them not to be rough (you work with the dog you have) but you will probably not chose a dog with those characteristics the next time around. Labs are bred to be soft mouthed? Then how come they are THE most likely dog breed to EAT the couch, or peel ALUMINUM SIDING off the house?
A border collie that is too 'drivey' or obsessive will to frequently and inappropriately grip the sheep. But you cant breed out biting of the sheep. You wouldn't want to. It is often necessary to bite the dominant or aggressive ones to control and move them. But you would keep and breed the dogs who have the correct balance of drive, focus, and control so you have the animal who is easiest to train and work with. That is why when lines of any breed aren't worked (no, I don't mean fought), they lose drive and ability. If a dog works independently (like hounds and terriers) it must be performed within parameters if they are going to be successful.(Many beagles never return from their first hunt.) And if it is cooperative (retrievers and herding breeds), and requires our instruction, we want other characteristics. Drives get bred to extreme when we deny, or don't understand its importance, and ignore nature. Herding dogs chase obsessively (even inanimate objects). Retrievers have oral fixations (soft or hard mouth) because the details were lost on the breeders. In any job... hunting, herding, fighting... they also lose temperament. Without pressuring dogs with some sort of mental and physical challenge, you don't know how the dog handles or reacts under stress. Is it under control?

Too many dogs aren't properly bred or trained. I hear a lot of excuses for aggression (or other behaviors) because of their dogs breed. Not that it doesn't occur in some breeds... but blind unprovoked aggression is not appropriate because its "in the breed". This is dangerous (obviously). But honestly I find aggression in many of "those" breeds is because they have not been appropriately trained and socialized... and often because of their owners fear, lack appropriate social skills with their own kind. It works the same in any breed.
Many sports can test a dogs appropriate temperament, drives, desire, tenacity to "pit" themselves against any challenge. And of course what sports shows those talents best depends on breed. Its unfortunate that more dogs of all breeds are expected so little of, since they would surely love the work and challenge.

Sorry for going so far off topic... but I keep hearing references to "breeding out human aggression", and with my behavioral experience with dogs of many breeds, I just don't feel this description is accurate, or possible. A dog that is behaviorally unpredictable, indiscriminate, or uncontrollable is a problem. This can be genetic. It can be learned. But all dogs bite. The difference is their threshold for reaction due to pressure (stress), self control (learned or genetic), experience and training as to what is expected and appropriate. They are taught this by their environment (us, pack, prey...).
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Postby Jenn » April 8th, 2006, 1:12 am

:goodStuff:
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Location: TX

Postby Hoyden » April 8th, 2006, 1:22 am

VERY :goodStuff:
Moral courage is the most valuable and usually the most absent characteristic in men ~ General George S. Patton, Jr.

She taking all the stars down from her sky to hang them up someplace new, where there's better weather and the sky's a different blue. ~ Autumn Fields
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Hoyden
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Location: Hot, Hot Texas, Baby!

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