And I hope you're not mad at us...we're really not trying to start anything...however, we also don't want you to think we're some barbarians that torture our dogs...we don't...we adore our dogs...we use much more positive reinforcement than we do punishment or negative reinforcement - and only use those when needed - which isn't all the time...
pitbullmamaliz wrote:Christine, I hated e-collars as well until I actually worked with a trainer who used them in a very gentle fashion. Mine also has 127 levels, and I used it on Inara on level 9, I think. I couldn't even feel it. She was so happy with it, prancing around with her tail wagging, because it was such gentle training. Sounds strange, but it's true. If I had more money I'd still be training her with it - I just can't afford the monthly trip to MI and the trainer's cost, and I'm not comfortable using it without a lot of guidance. But honestly, any training tool is only as bad as the person on the other end.
amazincc wrote:I also think they are counterproductive for fearful dogs
SisMorphine wrote:
Even more than counterproductive, IMO they are DANGEROUS to use on a fearful dog.
amazincc wrote:I always praise Mick for obeying, at least verbally. Is that a bad thing???
I do it because he is so extremely fearful and aggressive.. I want him to know when I'm pleased w/him for doing the right thing, each and every time. I thought I was re-enforcing the good behavior that way and not letting him doubt his "good" decisions.
He does know when I'm not happy as well... we finally are at the point where I can (mostly) verbally correct him, and he will stop being an asshat.
I abhor e-collars, personally.
cheekymunkee wrote:SisMorphine wrote:
Even more than counterproductive, IMO they are DANGEROUS to use on a fearful dog.
I agree 100% & I dont know why ANY ONE would think that would be a good idea.
katiek0417 wrote:
I don't think it's a bad thing if it's what works for you and Mick...RESEARCH suggests that you shouldn't do it all the time...but I know plenty of people who do...
The thing the research says is this:
If you reinforce a behavior ALL the time, it's easier to extinguish.
So, let's say you give a treat every time your dog sits...then all of a sudden, you stop rewarding that, then Mick might say "well, screw this, I'm not getting food anymore when I got it all the time before now, so maybe that means I don't have to do this behavior."
On the other hand, when you only reward sometimes, Mick might say "oh, well it's no big deal that I didn't get a treat this time b/c maybe next time I'll get it since I don't always get it all the time, anyway."
Not sure if that makes sense...
I typically reward EVERY time when I first start..then go to every other time, then every 2, then I start to mix it up...
As far as e-collars, I definitely don't like them on fearful dogs...in fact, I am working with a client right now whose dog doesn't have the best nerve, yet her previous trainer put her dog in an e-collar...I keep telling her to take it off...then I have another client with an 8 month old dog in one...ugh, I won't even put my dog in one before they are almost 3...
Liz, you're talking about the 202 you got from me, right? I am so glad you like it! Many people DON'T know how to use them, that's the big problem, IMO. When I first started to train with Sacha, the trainer put one on her, and didn't really show me how to use it...so now I have a dog that is extremely collar-wise, and won't listen to a word I say! After that, I did a lot of research, and asked a lot of questions about how to use an e-collar. It's definitely not my primary training tool, but it is one of the tools in my bag of tricks.
airwalk wrote:Well Scoots isn't fearful, but I do want him to ALWAYS look to me for direction but I tend to mix up my reinforcement. Sometimes it's a hot dog treat, sometimes just a quick pat, sometimes just verbal atta boy - once behavior is learned I slowly move the reinforcement down to maybe every fourth of fifth time. Just enough to keep him looking, but not enough so that is the reason he does the behavior...does that make any sense.
katiek0417 wrote:
...so if something happened that I knew would frighten him, I'd give him something to do really fast, then reward him for that...
amazincc wrote:katiek0417 wrote:
...so if something happened that I knew would frighten him, I'd give him something to do really fast, then reward him for that...
Oh... I didn't explain myself very clearly... I DO give him something to do.
Like when we're out for a walk and we see someone approaching us, he'll look up to me - I then tell him "walk" (means NO lunging or any other asshat behavior), and once we're past the stranger I praise him by saying "good walk".
I don't reward him for just looking at me, but he now does it whenever he's unsure of a situation... and then I give him directions on how to act. That's what I reward afterwards... following directions.
I really think if I stop doing that he'll revert to old behaviors.
He's very much a dog who wants to please and I don't see the point in not rewarding that each and every time. I guess it's just me.
katiek0417 wrote:
Ohhhh....I gotcha! Sorry...misunderstanding. I was more thinking that if you told him to sit in your house, you'd reward him each time! oops!
amazincc wrote:katiek0417 wrote:
Ohhhh....I gotcha! Sorry...misunderstanding. I was more thinking that if you told him to sit in your house, you'd reward him each time! oops!
Good God, no. The day wouldn't be long enough...
But in stressful situations I praise away like a maniac.
katiek0417 wrote:Liz, you're talking about the 202 you got from me, right? I am so glad you like it!
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