OK, I go away for a day and you guys go crazy! I can';t keep up!
But here goes, Something to think about as far as trained bite dogs go and these are my experiences and my thoughts. Not trying to change anyone's minds, just some fuel for thought.
Most dog bite case's (I forget the %) are caused by pet dogs with fear issue's. And if you look at the logic, a confident dog will NOT bite someone for no reason. Secondly, if you have a breed that is protective in temperment and has the potential to bite then wouldn't it make sense to teach the dog control, or in the case the dog were to bite to teach him to let go? How can you dothat if the dog isn't bitting at the time? Teach him to bite, teach the control, teach him t let go. It's the only sure fire way. It's away to safe gaurd against anything possibly happening Bite work does NOT change a dogs temperment. If a dogs a jerk and doesn't like people the he's that way with or with out bitework. If the dogs a big mush then it's a big mush with or with out bitework. That's a fact. Now I will go on the record and also say that I believe not everyone should own a pp dog, but then again I don't think everyone should own a pet dog either. Just as you have bad pp dog owners there are far more bad pet dog owners who do not safe gaurd John Q public against there fear agressive mix breed.
Now on to the e-collar. The e-collar is only a tool in a dog trainers bag of tricks. some use it as correction only. And that's fine! But by doing that your only using the e-collar at 1/2 it's potential. I will also to go on to say that I think pain and e-collar training don't really belong together simply b/c it gives the impression that you can only use an ecollar to inflict pain. And honestly, how can anything learn what you want from it when all it can concentrate on is pain. I think the proper term for training a behavior with an e-collar would be discomfort. I think when most people, especially pet dog people think of pain they think of a screaming dog. When I use an e-collar most of the time you don't even know I used it as my dogs don't even flinch in discomfort.
Also, a big mistake wit an ecollar people do is to just slap it on and use it. WRONG! The dog has to be taught what an ecollar is b e for correctio or motivation. Also, share similar character traits from breed to breed but every dog is also an individual and as such your training methods have to adjust. My two competition dogs are extremely different. My male (Jue) who needs some one on him at all times or he will bite someone. And then theres female (Asja) whom I taught everything to (foundation till about 1 1/2yrs) with a clicker.
Now the forced retrieve. Yes, I did work TJ's forced retrieve with an ecollar, not as a motivator but as a correction. People get confused with the term "forced retrieve". The forced retrieve is used when the dog goes out, retrieves the object, but the spits it out before they get back to you. The dog knows the retrieve, just something strikes them much more interesting so for what ever reason they spit it out. since the dog knows the command to retrieve it is fair to correct them for not doing it. I would NEVER teach anything with an ecollar or any other measure of correction. It's just not fair to the dog! So no, a forced retrieve does not have to be brutal which is what I think of when I think of a dog screaming
Dogs become collar wise when used improperly. What i mean is when a dog becomes collar wise it's because of one of two things. The most common reason is people tend t put the ecollar or pinch on right before their training session. As soon as they're done they take it right back off. This becomes a que to the dog that, "Ok, now I have to listen, Ok, now I dont".
The second reason is when the owner comes home after training the collars come off and the dog hangs out. In training the dog was told to do something one, maybe 2 times befre a correction. Now at home the dogis told 3,4,5 times with out a correction. If training collars are put on before they come in to hang out and taken off before bed time the dogs never become collar wise. Dogs are creatures of habit. So when they have a good foundation they will perform with out the ecolars or any other training tool. i mean lets face it, if you don't have your clicker or treats does your dog still listen to you? It's the same thing, just a tool and how you utilize that tool is up to you. Besides, I would never rely on a training tool, I would much rather rely on my knowledge as a trainer and my abilities to use the tools at my disposal. And that's what makes a good trainer.
Corrections and nagging basically get fewer andfewer over time. Since dogs are creatures of habit, and as long as your consistent in what you do ( and those goes for ANY aspect of training) eventually the desired behaviour over rides the not so desirable behaviour. You may always need a "tap on the shoulder" so to speak at some point as dogs are living creatures and are prone to revert back from time to time. No training method is fool proof. I don't care who you are or how good a trainer is with there method a dog will eventually do something we don't want or expect them to do.
Lastly and this is for you Michelle!
Choking a dog off the grip in my opinion only works for dogs that will let go without letting themselves pass out first. Mainly younger dogs and pups. No struggle and no damage done. When you have a tenacious dog such as a APBT or adult bite trained dog and you attempt to choke them off the grip you are ineveitably teaching them to fight the out. Then it becomes a battle against you and the dog. A side from dog fighting, think about what pitties were bred for hundreds of years for. Holding on! So it stands to reason that Riggs wants to hang in there and you choking him off just made him want it that much more. didn't we work on the out with one of your dogs when you and Patrick come to CCK9 to train?
As said in the previous paragraphs, I would never use the ecollar to teach a behaviour and that goes for the out.
I'm sure I missed some stuff But I am tired and it's past my bed time. My final thought though before bed is that things get lost in translation from person to person, 10 x's worst on the internet. everyone seems to have their own terms and sometimes that's where misunderstandings come in.