Timberwolf vs California Natural vs Solid Gold

Food, Fitness and how to keep them healthy.

Postby concreterose » April 3rd, 2006, 8:14 pm

Honestly, you went through WAY too many proteins in too short of a period of time. You did six proteins with your vet. A TRUE elimination diet is one where you stick to one protein for 90 days. No switching, no trying something else, no supplements, no veggies unless it's something green and leafy to support her liver function. Ideally it should be a protein that the dog has not had a lot of exposure to.

You've made it kind of difficult to rule that out with all the protein sources you've exposed her to. I told you over on PBF to stop changing her food so much. You've got to give it time. I know it's difficult when your pet is suffering, but with allergies, patience is the key. When you try a ton of things in a short period of time, it's darn near impossible to narrow it down to what is working and what isn't.

Her ear infections could have very well been due to her environmental allergies. Food allergies are actually pretty rare, and virtually impossible to run a test on. I would try another elimination diet (this time sticking with ONE protein for 90 WHOLE days) on a protein source she hasn't eaten a lot. You could do salmon or whitefish, I didn't see that listed. Cut out ALL supplements except what you are giving her for her environmental allergies. You've GOT to stop switching foods so much though, it's not helping her at all.
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Postby Maryellen » April 3rd, 2006, 8:19 pm

i had to stop due to her ear getting really really infected, it was at the point that the chicken and turkey got her ear so bad the vet had to sedate her to clean out her ear.. they were worried too, the longer she was on the food the worse her ear got.. it just kept getting more gunky and smelly and bloody and puss filled.. i will do one protein for 3 months and start over again.. i just get so worried when her ear flares up, as it starts a few hours after she eats something she is not supposed to, and takes a few days to clear up.. the longer she eats what she isnt supposed to, the more yeasty/puss filled/ brown gunk filled and red her ear gets.. but i will start over again and stick to one protein for 3 months and see how that goes..

when the seasons change her ear gets inflamed and brown gunky, but never as bad as when she eats the wrong protein. even the vet was shocked after she was on a protein for 2 weeks, she was shocked at how bad her ear had gotten, to the point she called in the head vet to look at her ear.. even he agreed to stop givingher the chicken .

i did rotate the TW foods with her, but stuck to that brand, and the chicken ones she couldnt eat,or the ones with grains as her ear would get inflamed a few hours later.
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Postby Magnolia618 » April 3rd, 2006, 8:22 pm

raw honey?? what is that?


The regular honey that you buy in a store has all been cooked and contaminated. Cooking takes out all of the good stuff, and raw tastes SOOOO Much better. Its thicker, so its more of a spread than like normal honey. It tastes a million times better.

My sister's g/f works at a place that makes TONS of stuff out of honey. Beauty products, cold medicines, everything. Honey is WONDERFUL.

If you get local honey, Jesse would be eating pollen from your environment. Its such a small amount that it would build up her tolerance to what she is allergic to. You know what I mean?
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Postby Maryellen » April 3rd, 2006, 8:24 pm

oh ok, now i get it.. i am going to do a protein for 3months. strickly herring with no grains and no supplements and see how that goes, right now she is not reacting to the herring from supper, no itching, scratching, chewing, or rubbing her face, ear or body...
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Postby concreterose » April 3rd, 2006, 8:26 pm

ME, here is an excellent article on elimination diets. The author went through a lot of what you are going through with Jesse.
Allergy Article
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Postby Magnolia618 » April 3rd, 2006, 8:30 pm

Good.

She needs to stick with one thing for at least 90 days. You wont be able to tell anything if its just a week. Just give her the one thing, nothing else.

I really hope this works for you!
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Postby Maryellen » April 3rd, 2006, 8:35 pm

what i dont understand, is when she eats chicken or turkey, her ear gets inflamed within hours, and she chews her feet like mad, and rubs her face all over.... wouldnt that suggest a food allergy to chicken?

i will look at that link. mill, thanks!
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Postby concreterose » April 3rd, 2006, 8:39 pm

Maryellen wrote:what i dont understand, is when she eats chicken or turkey, her ear gets inflamed within hours, and she chews her feet like mad, and rubs her face all over.... wouldnt that suggest a food allergy to chicken?

i will look at that link. mill, thanks!

Yup. that's the purpose of an elimination diet. You will know fairly quickly when you are diligently controlling her protein source what she is allergic to. It sounds like she reacted fairly quickly to chicken and turkey. Pick another protein and try it, the herring sounds like a good one since you haven't fed it regularly. Watch her like a hawk so you can determine what is being caused by environmental allergies and what is caused by food. Inflamed muzzles, ear infections, and face rubbing/scratching are typically characteristics of food allergies. Foot chewing, eye rubbing, and underarm, body irritations are usually environmental. Is the pred still working with the environmentals?
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Postby Maryellen » April 3rd, 2006, 8:44 pm

the pred works pretty good with her, i give her 20 mg as needed. some days she needs a pill a day, some days she can go without it.. the chicken and turkey get her going within a few hours, so does the grains.. she does both, chews her feet, rubs her face after eating, and shakes her head.. she doesnt scratch like she has fleas though. i know not to give her anythingwith chicken or turkey or i see results within 2 hours usually, and the grains the same thing... i was just shocked that the ocean blue was starting to affect her as well... i read that article, it was VERY informative, i am going to print it out and re read it again..

so far, its been over an hour that she got the california natural herring and sweet potato, and she hasnt licked, shaken, or rubbed her face on anything.. its weird, she is actually quite calm, and isnt pacing back and forth like she does after she eats something that will bother her.. i will keep her on the herring for the next 3 months, with no supplements at all, just the prednisone if i see she needs it and the ear meds.. i have never seen her this calm after eating in a long time.. its like she is a different dog.. i am used to seeing her pacing, anxious, chewing, rubbing, and shaking her head.. if i can get the food part under control then i think it will help the air borne part. i know i cant fix the airborne part completely, but at least if i can give her some relief from the food part it might help her to stay relaxed....
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Postby concreterose » April 3rd, 2006, 8:50 pm

See if you can get the natural pred for her. I keep a bottle of it on hand for Vicki and it works really good. It's made from plant oil and has none of the side effects of prednisone. If you can get it, I'll tell you how to dose it for her (Carolann gave me the dosages). Your vet has to order it. Let me know if you want it and I'll look thru my emails to get the phone number to where they order it from.
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Postby Maryellen » April 3rd, 2006, 8:57 pm

oh natural pred.... ok, i will call my vet tomorrow and ask if he can get it..
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Postby katiek0417 » April 3rd, 2006, 9:44 pm

Also, keep in mind that there is a theory about allergies that says that exposure is what causes an allergy. For example, that's why they say that kids shouldn't eat peanuts, strawberries, eggs, etc until they're 2.

Sacha is allergic to chicken and turkey. The MINUTE I switched her to duck, she stopped vomiting....it had been the first time in 3 weeks that she was able to keep food down.

I have since found out that Sacha is able to eat alternate proteins: rabbit, venison, fish-bases....

chicken allergies are the most common allergies in dogs...why? Because so many foods have it as a primary protein source.
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Postby concreterose » April 3rd, 2006, 9:49 pm

katiek0417 wrote:chicken allergies are the most common allergies in dogs...why? Because so many foods have it as a primary protein source.

Another reason that chicken is a primary allergen is because most chicken feed is you bet...grain based. So dogs with grain allergies will be more prone to poultry allergies. This is why you have many dogs and cats that have allergies to beef now...a lot of beef now is grain fed. Give those same animals free range, grass fed beef, and they can now tolerate beef. Grass fed animals also provide way more omega three fatty acids (which are anti-inflammatory, so great for allergy conditions).
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Postby Patch O' Pits » April 4th, 2006, 7:27 am

Maryellen wrote:raw honey?? what is that?


You can get it at the health food store , it is unprocessed hone .

Also Dr. Chu is a regular vet who does some holistic vet work.... Here is the # to check her out. She is in Lakewood at Ocean County Vet
732 363-7200

Who is the vet in margate?

Garden State and Redbank Vets also have dogy dermatologists/allergists on staff
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Postby dogcrazyjen » April 4th, 2006, 7:46 am

Or you can call any beekeeper and ask them. All it is is honey straight out of the hive. If you like I can get you some but it will not be local. If you cannot find any in the phone book, call cooperative extension and then ask for the local beekeepers association. Likely you can buy some direct. Oh, when the weather warms up the farmers markets will have fresh honey.

I caution against health food stores because they are a freaking ripoff and will charge you an arm and a leg for "honey in the raw blah blah blah" when it really is just honey straight out of the hive, unprocessed. If you can get it in the comb, dogs LOVE honeycomb. My girls got stung last year for taking the comb out of the buckets when they were still covered with bees!

Let me know how you fare. I can always send you some, Northern NJ isn't that far from upstate NY.
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Postby katiek0417 » April 4th, 2006, 10:19 am

concreterose wrote:Another reason that chicken is a primary allergen is because most chicken feed is you bet...grain based. So dogs with grain allergies will be more prone to poultry allergies. This is why you have many dogs and cats that have allergies to beef now...a lot of beef now is grain fed. Give those same animals free range, grass fed beef, and they can now tolerate beef. Grass fed animals also provide way more omega three fatty acids (which are anti-inflammatory, so great for allergy conditions).


That's really interesting....I didn't know that....

What's funny is that Sacha can't eat free-range chicken either...any chicken makes her sick....

Now, I thought she had a beef allergy...but that seems to have gotten better...
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Postby dogcrazyjen » April 4th, 2006, 10:33 am

OK, I just got back from the vet, and Tallulah has an ear infection due to ...you guessed it...allergies.

She just got out of an allergy induced haze over winter, where she put on 10 pounds (she weighs in at 37 now) dull coat, lethargy, dog aggression, paw licking. She looks phenominal now, glossy coat, thin, active, white little feet.

I put her on raw last week, chicken and beef heart, both foods she did great on when cooked.

I am not sure if the infection has been there a while, or not. I didn't notice it until 3 days ago. She also has a little allergy spot between the toes.

I thought I would treat the ear, and stay on the diet. If the infection stays, or comes back, I will switch her protien source to either venison or turkey. Problem with venison is how do you get the bone? And can I find a source to make sure I stay on one protien? Do you think turkey is different enough form chicken to make a difference?

or I can put her back on Innova for two months and see how that goes.

I have to go pick up a case of chicken backs for the other two, I will ask the butcher if he can get another kind of meat for relatively cheap.

My vet, BTW, was NOT happy that I was doing raw and suggested I give them vitamins. I cook for my kids without having to use vitamins, why would the dogs be any different? She did mention that the samonella can travel through to the stool. Anyone else heard this? And how does that work for the mouth, can you get samonella from having the dog kiss you?

Arrgh it is so hard to know what to do sometimes!
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Postby cheekymunkee » April 4th, 2006, 10:43 am

Your vet is full of crap. Most of them are when it comes to nutrition. They truly believe if it doesn't come in a bag or a can it is not to be fed. My dogs have never looked or felt better.

Do you think turkey is different enough form chicken to make a difference?


Yes it is, Munkee cannot eat chicken but does fine with turkey.
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Postby cheekymunkee » April 4th, 2006, 10:47 am

Oh and my regular vet felt the same way about raw until I suggested she read up on it. When I took them in for rabies shots a few months ago she had totally changed her way of thinking & was surprised at how good my dogs look.
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Postby katiek0417 » April 4th, 2006, 11:03 am

cheekymunkee wrote:Your vet is full of crap. Most of them are when it comes to nutrition. They truly believe if it doesn't come in a bag or a can it is not to be fed. My dogs have never looked or felt better.


I 100% agree with that. My dogs are always getting into stuff, and get diarrhea (at least once a month one of them is on flagyl)...my vet INSISTS that it's because I feed them raw. In fact, the vet has actually said "Are you still feeding raw? You know that is what's doing this to them." My response is that my dogs have NEVER looked better...and apart from the occasional bout of diarrhea (and, honestly, if it happens in the lab it's because she's eaten some of the puppy's treats with chicken...and if it's in the puppy it's because she had too much hot dog during a training session), they have never had such great poop!!!

If it were up to my vet, my dogs would be on Science Diet (or something like that). Now, I'm not trying to knock Science Diet, or those foods...but I know there are better foods out there (my vet didn't even know what Innova EVO was).

cheekymunkee wrote:
Do you think turkey is different enough form chicken to make a difference?


Yes it is, Munkee cannot eat chicken but does fine with turkey.


Absolutely, Sacha can't each chicken, but I can do turkey hotdogs (or turkey raw)....
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Drusilla SLUT- Pet
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