Postive / Negative Punishment / Reinforcement Explained

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Postby mnp13 » July 24th, 2008, 10:42 pm

What do you think of Asja's OB? All of her foundation was done with a clicker. When I first met her, she didn't yet wear a prong collar or an e-collar, and her obedience ran circles, even then, around many people I've seen competing in Ring. She learned the call off without any corrections...yet I can promise you, she is considered one of the hardest bitches in PSA EVER.


If her obediece was that high level without any compulsion, why did she then get put on a prong and e-collar?
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Postby katiek0417 » July 24th, 2008, 10:49 pm

mnp13 wrote:
What do you think of Asja's OB? All of her foundation was done with a clicker. When I first met her, she didn't yet wear a prong collar or an e-collar, and her obedience ran circles, even then, around many people I've seen competing in Ring. She learned the call off without any corrections...yet I can promise you, she is considered one of the hardest bitches in PSA EVER.


If her obediece was that high level without any compulsion, why did she then get put on a prong and e-collar?


Because her obedience was good, but HE felt that it wasn't where HE wanted it. And, he knew that there would be a time where he would have to be on a trial field without any collar/leash. And no matter what you prepare for in training, ANYTHING can happen on trial day, and he wanted to make sure that wasn't going to happen - Asja likes to bite, and in the face of being that amped up (she knows when it's trial day) he wanted to make sure nothing went wrong. MOST people would've shown Asja with the level of OB she had on her, but you know Greg. Greg doesn't play to lose. Greg plays to win, which he does (as proven by the fact that he has more dogs titled in PSA than any other handler).
"Rumor has it, compulsion is evil."

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Postby mnp13 » July 24th, 2008, 10:54 pm

No no no... don't get me wrong. I know 100% that Asja is not your dog and you do not make the decisions about/for her training. I was just curious why the decision was made to go to compulsion instead of staying with primarily motivational when she was doing so well with it.

I did not mean to come off like you made the decision.
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Postby katiek0417 » July 24th, 2008, 11:08 pm

mnp13 wrote:No no no... don't get me wrong. I know 100% that Asja is not your dog and you do not make the decisions about/for her training. I was just curious why the decision was made to go to compulsion instead of staying with primarily motivational when she was doing so well with it.

I did not mean to come off like you made the decision.


Here's what you don't get. Just b/c someone uses compulsion DOES NOT mean they don't use primarily motivational. We both do. Most of our training sessions with ALL of our dogs are primarily positive reinforcement: food, toys, and bites. We don't sit there hammering our dogs on pinch collars. If that's what you think, then you're mistaken. In fact, most of Nisha's obedience over the last week has been positive reinforcement only. Tonight, in 8 minutes of OB with her, I corrected her 2 times. Yet she had 3 hot dogs. I'm not sure how that's ANYTHING but primarily motivational. Same thing goes for Cy's OB sessions...same thing even goes for Jue and Asja.

You can use compulsion without making it your primary tool. For every correction I give, my dogs get 10 times more reward.

Take Ricardo for example. Do you think Jerry used primarily compulsion simply because he believes in using compulsion for training? Well, he didn't. If he had, he would've ended up in the hospital. See, before Ricardo came to the US, he put 4 handlers in the hospital.

Being a good trainer means you're able to find a balance between motivation and compulsion, and being able to use all the ALL the tools, clicker included, at your disposal to get the best possible obedience.
"Rumor has it, compulsion is evil."

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Postby BullyLady » July 24th, 2008, 11:12 pm

Katrina, I wonder if you know how defensive you come off anytime you get to talking about training. I think that you have alot of good advice to offer, but whenever someone asks questions about why you choose to do things the way you do you almost immediately go on the defense. Not being rude, I just wonder if you know that that is how you sound.
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Postby katiek0417 » July 24th, 2008, 11:14 pm

BullyLady wrote:Katrina, I wonder if you know how defensive you come off anytime you get to talking about training. I think that you have alot of good advice to offer, but whenever someone asks questions about why you choose to do things the way you do you almost immediately go on the defense. Not being rude, I just wonder if you know that that is how you sound.


Cathleen, that's just how I speak. I don't mean to come off that way, but that's how I speak, in general. Guess it's the Greek in me.

And I really don't think my last post was defensive at all. I think it was honest.
"Rumor has it, compulsion is evil."

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Postby DemoDick » July 25th, 2008, 1:24 pm

Here's what you don't get. Just b/c someone uses compulsion DOES NOT mean they don't use primarily motivational.


Michelle understands this very well. She's usually the first one on this board to point it out. You jumped to a conclusion on this one.

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Postby katiek0417 » July 25th, 2008, 1:31 pm

DemoDick wrote:
Here's what you don't get. Just b/c someone uses compulsion DOES NOT mean they don't use primarily motivational.


Michelle understands this very well. She's usually the first one on this board to point it out. You jumped to a conclusion on this one.

Demo Dick


No, it was based on this comment (emphasis added):

mnp13 wrote:I was just curious why the decision was made to go to compulsion instead of staying with primarily motivational when she was doing so well with it.


When you say you GO TO something it means you are leaving one thing, and going to a different thing. Then, she said INSTEAD OF. The word "instead" is an adverb meaning "to subsitute or replace." So, essentially, the meaning of that phrase is "going from primarily motivational and replacing/subsituting it with compulsion." That is the meaning of that surface structure (if you look at the meaning of the words). Maybe she worded it wrong, and meant it to imply: why did he INCLUDE compulsion, rather than substitute it for something.
"Rumor has it, compulsion is evil."

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Postby BritneyP » July 25th, 2008, 4:19 pm

katiek0417 wrote:
The BEST OB Greg ever saw on a dog was a Rottie in IPO...trained with a clicker....

KNPV dogs are police dogs, so I highly doubt it...KNPV is a police dog certification, and the obedience isn't scored nearly as strictly as it would be in Sch or PSA. However, Tino Schaars has titled more dogs (including Ricardo) to PH1 than any other handler, and this includes: GSDs, mals, Dutchies, rotties, and Bouviers, and he uses a clicker. :|

Also, understand that Sch OB shouldn't be looked down upon - especially at the world levels, where your obedience needs to be flawless and top notch - and especially flashy. I know several of these competitors use a clicker. Have you ever seen these world competitions.

What do you think of Asja's OB? All of her foundation was done with a clicker. When I first met her, she didn't yet wear a prong collar or an e-collar, and her obedience ran circles, even then, around many people I've seen competing in Ring. She learned the call off without any corrections...yet I can promise you, she is considered one of the hardest bitches in PSA EVER.


I lay foundation OB on my dog's through +R and whatever markers and rewards they respond to best.

I didn't think we were talking about foundation OB. Also, like I said, that was only ONE dog that I know of that was trained from start to finish using no compulsion. Additionally, I do not look down upon SchH OB. That is exactly the type of OB I strive for with my own dogs. However, I used it as an example only because in SchH OB, even at the WORLD LEVEL, there is no agitation from decoys and the pressure in SchH protection is a lot different, and in my humble opinion, alot LESS than in many other bite sports, primarily ones that use a suit. Also, I just personally believe that the majority of top level competitors, ESPECIALLY SchH (I know alot of them), cannot acheive that flashy OB without some form of compulsion. Were you not just talking about how you use it with your own dogs?

I'm completely confused as to what it is that we're debating here? :| I apologize, but you're really confusing me.
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Postby katiek0417 » July 25th, 2008, 4:27 pm

BritneyP wrote:
katiek0417 wrote:
The BEST OB Greg ever saw on a dog was a Rottie in IPO...trained with a clicker....

KNPV dogs are police dogs, so I highly doubt it...KNPV is a police dog certification, and the obedience isn't scored nearly as strictly as it would be in Sch or PSA. However, Tino Schaars has titled more dogs (including Ricardo) to PH1 than any other handler, and this includes: GSDs, mals, Dutchies, rotties, and Bouviers, and he uses a clicker. :|

Also, understand that Sch OB shouldn't be looked down upon - especially at the world levels, where your obedience needs to be flawless and top notch - and especially flashy. I know several of these competitors use a clicker. Have you ever seen these world competitions.

What do you think of Asja's OB? All of her foundation was done with a clicker. When I first met her, she didn't yet wear a prong collar or an e-collar, and her obedience ran circles, even then, around many people I've seen competing in Ring. She learned the call off without any corrections...yet I can promise you, she is considered one of the hardest bitches in PSA EVER.


I lay foundation OB on my dog's through +R and whatever markers and rewards they respond to best.

I didn't think we were talking about foundation OB. Also, like I said, that was only ONE dog that I know of that was trained from start to finish using no compulsion. Additionally, I do not look down upon SchH OB. That is exactly the type of OB I strive for with my own dogs. However, I used it as an example only because in SchH OB, even at the WORLD LEVEL, there is no agitation from decoys and the pressure in SchH protection is a lot different, and in my humble opinion, alot LESS than in many other bite sports, primarily ones that use a suit. Also, I just personally believe that the majority of top level competitors, ESPECIALLY SchH (I know alot of them), cannot acheive that flashy OB without some form of compulsion. Were you not just talking about how you use it with your own dogs?

I'm completely confused as to what it is that we're debating here? :| I apologize, but you're really confusing me.


I'm just saying that I've seen some gorgeous obedience ENTIRELY done with clicker, or +R. Flashy, etc. That's all I was trying to say.

I think people need to find what works for their individual dogs, but part of finding what works is experimenting and keeping an open mind to trying new things. I've told people that I plan on doing a lot of Nemo's obedience with a clicker.
"Rumor has it, compulsion is evil."

Katrina
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Nisha CGC, PDC, PSA TC, PSA 1 - Crazy Malinois
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Postby BritneyP » July 25th, 2008, 4:48 pm

katiek0417 wrote:
I'm just saying that I've seen some gorgeous obedience ENTIRELY done with clicker, or +R. Flashy, etc. That's all I was trying to say.


I don't remember if you answered whether that obedience involved immense amount of pressure from decoys on field? Like I said, I would think it would be much easier to obtain that type of OB routine via strict +R without the added pressure and excitement of decoys, distractions, etc. There is no pressure and VERY little to distract a dog during a SchH OB routine.

katiek0417 wrote:I think people need to find what works for their individual dogs, but part of finding what works is experimenting and keeping an open mind to trying new things.


I also think I already whole-heartedly agreed with you about this statement. :wink:

Oh Christine, don't take this the wrong way, but I actually think furever_pit could probably learn alot from this entire thread. It may have gone off on somewhat of a tangent, but it's all valuable information, atleast I think so. :)
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Postby pitbullmamaliz » July 25th, 2008, 5:10 pm

:bump:

'Cause it's an informative read.
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Postby BritneyP » July 25th, 2008, 5:26 pm

I wish we could link all the info and discussion posted on the other thread to this one somehow? :sad2:
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Postby amazincc » July 25th, 2008, 5:28 pm

Splendid idea... PM a mod and suggest it! :clap:
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Postby pitbullmamaliz » July 25th, 2008, 5:34 pm

Gimme a minute, lemme see if I can figure it out!
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Postby ellie@ny » July 25th, 2008, 6:25 pm

katiek0417 wrote:I think people need to find what works for their individual dogs, but part of finding what works is experimenting and keeping an open mind to trying new things.



I agree with this statement 100% Katrina! :wink:
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Postby katiek0417 » July 25th, 2008, 6:45 pm

ellie@ny wrote:
katiek0417 wrote:I think people need to find what works for their individual dogs, but part of finding what works is experimenting and keeping an open mind to trying new things.



I agree with this statement 100% Katrina! :wink:


It's funny...if you had asked me a year ago if I would be using a clicker to train my new dog, I would've said no (not because I don't like the clicker, but b/c I always leave it at home so it become useless :| ).

However, Erin (TheRedQueen) came to my class this past semester and did a demo for my students with Score, and I was thoroughly impressed! :dance: I like that I can use the clicker to "capture" certain behaviors, which i think will be so important as Nemo learns to stand, etc. I have also seen video of the retrieve taught with the clicker, and I've been using it with Nisha, and it's incredible! She's getting it! (Mind you, I had been trying to train the formal retrieve with her for a very long time using negative reinforcement, and she was just getting down in the dumps).

However, I wouldn't try this if I didn't have an open mind. And I love being able to come up with new things to do with my dog!
"Rumor has it, compulsion is evil."

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Postby amazincc » July 25th, 2008, 6:47 pm

How do you guys teach the dogs to equate the clicker w/"a job well done"?
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Postby BritneyP » July 25th, 2008, 6:55 pm

amazincc wrote:How do you guys teach the dogs to equate the clicker w/"a job well done"?


I would imagine it's the same with dogs as it is with horses, so I'll explain how I did it with my horse. :wink:

You have to first teach them how to associate the sound of the clicker with a good behavior by doing something called "bridging" the two together. Basically, with my horse, I spent a few days just spending 5-10 minutes a day with him, clicking and treating, clicking and treating. I don't know if this is the most formal way, but it didn't take him long to associate the sound of the clicker with recieving a treat. After that, I was able to start teaching him behaviors and clicking when he performed them correctly, which in turn caused him to start performing the behaviors correctly more frequently. :)
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Postby katiek0417 » July 25th, 2008, 6:58 pm

amazincc wrote:How do you guys teach the dogs to equate the clicker w/"a job well done"?


Pavlov's Classical conditioning. (Although, I've heard it referred to as "loading the clicker.")

So, you continuously pair the click with the food. (and, for what order, you click, then give food; click then food; click then food...do it continuously). I do it about 30 times twice a day.

Then, I use the click in replacement of a "good job." The purpose of the click is to mark the behavior when it occurs, and it lets the dog know a reward (like food) is coming even if it's not coming that second. A benefit of clickers is that they never sound different...
"Rumor has it, compulsion is evil."

Katrina
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Nisha CGC, PDC, PSA TC, PSA 1 - Crazy Malinois
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