Sad day at the AKC show

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Postby mnp13 » April 1st, 2006, 8:32 pm

The agility was REALLY fun to watch. Not enough bullies though. Vegas did well and won some ribbons!! Lisa hasn't had time to get online in the past few days because of the show. Hopefully she'll have a breather next week to give us a full account.

We also went to the conformation show. :cry:

The AmStaffs were so fat that some of them were jiggleing during their down and backs. I mean they were fat, not just a little 'padded'. Comparatively little taper, no ribs, completely hidden muscles. We saw 14 dogs, and it was the same for all of them. I'd have to put 10-12 pounds on Riggs to get him to that body type. He weighs 48 pounds now, I've put about 3 pounds since I put up the first pictures of him up.

We walked past a ring of black dogs. Lisa asked me how I thought they looked. I asked them what they were. I honestly didn't know. They were Labs. Short, heavy legs, large barrel bodies... and fat. Now, I grew up with a Lab. She was bred by Guiding Eyes for the Blind. She was put together so that her body would handle working. She wasn't the prettiest dog, but she was functional. There were more than a few who were obviously tired just from the down and backs in the ring. It was sad to watch. Not a single dog there would have had a prayer in an actual working situation. Not a chance. There were Labs in the agility ring who wouldn't have had a chance in the show ring... and those were the ones who had at least a level of funcationality.

No breed will ever go anywhere, in fact they will all go farther and farther into the toilet, if breeders are rewarded for making dogs that have a physical inability to do what the particular breed was created to do.

Before everyone has a hissy fit, I'm sure there are breeds that have not yet been destroyed by the show ring. I don't know every breed. What I personally saw today, in breeds I am familiar with, was disheartening.
Last edited by mnp13 on April 1st, 2006, 9:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby babyreba » April 1st, 2006, 9:02 pm

I've only been to a handful of dog shows in my life, but my experiences were similar. I remember being SHOCKED by the labs especially--I had no clue people were breeding them like that.

I don't go to the MD Kennel Club stuff anymore--not really how I want to see dogs, really. They are interesting, but also very sad.
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Postby ellie@ny » April 1st, 2006, 9:23 pm

Michelle,It's sad your post Isn't an April fool..... :cry: Because it's so true...Sometime when I'm in the ring I feel,my female is so tiny,and she's not...I mean she's under 50#,and when I look arround the over 50# -19" females,I feel bad...Or when there is only one color...!
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Postby SisMorphine » April 1st, 2006, 9:38 pm

AKC Greyhounds don't stand a chance against NGA (racing) Greys.

It really is sad the direction that conformation takes breeds. It's away from functionality. It's just not right. :rolleyes2:
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Postby dogcrazyjen » April 1st, 2006, 9:45 pm

Chessies and Bull terriers are the same-obese in the name of substance.

Substance my a$$, blubber is more like it. My friends the breeder says my dog is emaciated :rolleyes2: , but she is in phenominal condition. She can run and NOT get tired in 5 minutes.
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Postby mnp13 » April 1st, 2006, 9:48 pm

The most troubling thing to me is that it appeared that if someone decided to show a dog that was a correct weight, they would loose. If they showed a dog that looked like it could do what it was supposed to do, it would loose. I really just don't get it.

Our dogs are Pit Bulls (and I'm including AmStaffs). They don't belong in a Pit, but they should have the look of being able to be there. Power, grace, athletic. Most of the dogs today, in the condition I saw them, did not look the part of the athlete. Maybe a retired athlete, but not one who is in his/her prime.

If they are as athletic as they are supposed to be, as I'm sure it will be argued, then why is it mandated that physique be covered?

And just to make a point on the Pit Bull/AmStaff debate, those short legged, barrel bodied Labs are still Labs. Until those are made a separate breed from Labs that actually have functionality you probably can't convince me that Pit Bulls and AmStaffs are different.
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Postby Romanwild » April 1st, 2006, 10:23 pm

For the most part I was disappointed with the amstaffs. Not because of the fat, that can be removed. More because of the actual structure of a the majority of them. Bad feet, bad rears, bad fronts. Huge, I mean huge, heads and bad movement. I won't go into the handling.

The agility was great! Rally looked like it might be fun.

Vega is a beautiful dog!

I had a good time. Got to see Michelle, Lisa and Jill and Dee. My kennel club sponored the day so that meant I had to work a little but I got a catered lunch out of it! :D
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Postby Hartagold AmStaffs » April 2nd, 2006, 3:59 am

mnp13 wrote:The most troubling thing to me is that it appeared that if someone decided to show a dog that was a correct weight, they would loose. If they showed a dog that looked like it could do what it was supposed to do, it would loose. I really just don't get it.


Not necessarily! While I agree that MOST of the ASTs are WAY too fat, there are judges who can appreciate a non-fat dog lol. I find my dogs do best under judges that started with a terrier breed (vs all-rounders coming from another group) because they realize that bigger ISN'T better, that a fat dog couldn't do it's job, and they don't mind a bit of "spunk" in the dogs, or a few scars lol.

Presley has been getting Group placements (in very limited showing) since he was 10 months old, and I have NEVER put a pound on him to show. He's 18-5/8" (wicketed by AKC rep at the agility trial) and 54 pounds. You can see ribs on him, and for at least half of his group placements he's had visible scars/bite marks on his face (he plays ROUGH with his sisters lol)

He got a Group 4 this weekend, with my husband handling him (VERY much a newbie to showing!) in stiff competition. The Manchester Terrier he beat was a Westminster and National Specialty winner, the Airedale that took 1st is the#1 Airedale in the US for 2 yrs straight, and won Best in Show both days.

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Postby Hartagold AmStaffs » April 2nd, 2006, 4:00 am

Oh and that's not my hubby btw, that's Tom Davis, the handler we use when we can afford it lol. He was handling the Manchester that Presley beat this weekend.
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Postby SamIAM » April 2nd, 2006, 9:39 am

That fad has been going on for years. When I was showing Joe they had me have him at 85 pounds. When I trimmed him down for weight pull he was 68 pounds. Still to large but they like to have them fat for some reason, not all of the showers but a lot of them.
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Postby Patch O' Pits » April 2nd, 2006, 10:17 am

Hartagold AmStaffs wrote:Oh and that's not my hubby btw, that's Tom Davis, the handler we use when we can afford it lol. He was handling the Manchester that Presley beat this weekend.


Congrats on the win Lora! I just love Presley!

Yes, I have seen many fat and also NO drive sofa spud APBTs and Amstaffs in the show ring but I have also seen some really great dogs.

The judges perceptions and also the the amount of non standard dogs they see often plays a part in who is chosen IMO.

I have had more than one say to me they can't wait to see Patcheeno when he matures LOL. He will be 7 years old in May. He is 18 1/2 '' and about 57 lbs give or take he is a picky eater at times. Or I here how old is your puppy? Guess my baby boy is just forever young :wink:

IMO form should follow function and if the dog can't move or perform he/she has no place in the show ring
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Postby Hoyden » April 2nd, 2006, 11:12 am

My godfather used to breed labs for hunting. You don't EVEN want to get him started on what is wrong with the dogs in the ring today.

As far as he is concerned, if the dog can't perform the job that it was originally bred to do, then the dog no longer conforms to the breed standard and should not be shown.
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Postby Romanwild » April 2nd, 2006, 12:58 pm

Congrats Lora! Do you ever get up to the Clayton NY show?
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Postby Carla » April 2nd, 2006, 4:04 pm

Hartagold AmStaffs wrote: that's Tom Davis, the handler we use when we can afford it lol. He was handling the Manchester that Presley beat this weekend.


hehehe......love it!......

:laugh1:

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Postby katiek0417 » April 2nd, 2006, 5:34 pm

mnp13 wrote:They were Labs. Short, heavy legs, large barrel bodies... and fat.
]

Keep in mind that English lab are short legged, barrel bodied, more square faces. American Field labs are meant to be used for field trials and agaility trials.

You've seen Sacha (short, stocky, like a barrel on legs)...she was never meant to be an agility champion...her parents excelled in search and rescue (her Dad) while her mom was a field trial champ.

Many lab owners have been trying to get AKC to distinguish between the two types, and make 2 different listings...

More information:

http://www.labbies.com/history.htm[/i]
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Postby mnp13 » April 2nd, 2006, 5:41 pm

I just want to point out that I was only commenting on what I saw at this show. I have never been to a conformation show and was disappointed in what I saw at the one I was at. I'm sure there are differences between shows and judges opinions though.

Katrina, the Labs I saw make Sascha look lithe and agile.
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Postby katiek0417 » April 2nd, 2006, 6:55 pm

mnp13 wrote:Katrina, the Labs I saw make Sascha look lithe and agile.


No miracle in the world could make my "Chubette" look lithe and agile...:wink:
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Postby mnp13 » April 2nd, 2006, 6:57 pm

lol

well, you know what I mean...
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Postby Pitcrew » April 2nd, 2006, 10:18 pm

Hey, I gotta say I have admired Hartagold's and Patch's dogs for some time. They are what I WISH we saw up here. Few (and I mean VERY few) of the dogs up here I see are even what I would call show quality. Most of my dogs have been, admittedly, pet quality, but should have had at LEAST as good of a chance in the ring as some of the dogs I see... including champions. I even know of one, owned by someone I know, who became a champion (after extensive showing, for about 5 years). He is BARELY recognizable as an amstaf! He looks like a GIANT staffybull with too big of a head, too short/thick of a neck, weak back, straight shoulders/rear, flat feet, and about as much drive as a bucket. Its a shame.
I just cant wast my money showing Vega against these dogs up here (I prefer to spend it on agility entries). She is so different from them I would be really insulted to have any of those dogs get put up over her. And the politics... dont make me go there!
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Postby Hartagold AmStaffs » April 3rd, 2006, 12:38 am

Lisa wrote:Hey, I gotta say I have admired Hartagold's and Patch's dogs for some time. They are what I WISH we saw up here. Few (and I mean VERY few) of the dogs up here I see are even what I would call show quality.


Thanks!!

I even know of one, owned by someone I know, who became a champion (after extensive showing, for about 5 years). He is BARELY recognizable as an amstaf! He looks like a GIANT staffybull with too big of a head, too short/thick of a neck, weak back, straight shoulders/rear, flat feet, and about as much drive as a bucket. Its a shame.


LOL I would almost be willing to put money on knowing exactly which dog you are talking about!

I just cant wast my money showing Vega against these dogs up here (I prefer to spend it on agility entries). She is so different from them I would be really insulted to have any of those dogs get put up over her. And the politics... dont make me go there!


Come down to the Columbia Terrier specialty and the weekend shows in Baltimore - I'll have my Zumi entered, she's 17-1/4" and 40ish pounds.... (compared to the bitch of the same height that was entered this past weekend, and weighs 57 pounds :shock: ) The B-more shows close this wed the 5th, MB-F. We're entered Fri-Sun in breed, MeMe in OpenB obed on Fri, and Pres & Zumi in Rally on Sat.
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