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Postby Pitcrew » March 30th, 2006, 6:04 pm

Darnit! I couldn't watch that video either. :(
"Pedigree indicates what the animal should be;
Conformation indicates what the animal appears to be;
But, Performance indicates what the animal actually is."
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Postby mnp13 » March 30th, 2006, 6:12 pm

Lisa wrote:Darnit! I couldn't watch that video either. :(


patience grasshopper.... you'll have your CD on Saturday.
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Postby DemoDick » March 30th, 2006, 6:23 pm

Connor is I dog I wished I could own. He is everything I look for in a good dog.

Take a look at this video (you may have already seen it) and watch the control and clear mind. Connor is the same way!

http://www.k9sts.com/rumblefarmmovie/

Safe training,
Chris Fraize


LOL. Clear mind yes, control...not so much. But that's my problem, not the dog's. We're getting there though. Thanks for the kind words.

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Postby Red » March 31st, 2006, 3:09 am

If these dogs are unsound, how is that they are passing the TT & the CGC?


I hope you don't think that every dog who passed a TT or CGC is automatically sound and a 100% safe. Trough training we can modify a dog's response to where we can hide a natural response. None of the tests offer enough stress to bring out major reactions or the real personality of the dog.Of course there are dogs who are totally unstable, fearful, shy, and won't even make it to finish the test.With dogs who don't have a super temperament but yet not freaks we can very well train them to offer one response instead of the other.It doesn't mean that this is the natural response of the dog, it is conditioned. Jessup titled a bitch who was unsound, by her own words, Doberman breed I think.Not only she passed the TT and CGC but she also titled in sport competitions.


People are all for Diane Jessup & her Law Dogs program. Are these dogs going to be trained in protection? I would assume so. They aren't ALL going to be detection dogs are they?


As far as I know the law program she is talking about is bomb/drug detections.I don't think she would offer a pit bull for other things.But then again she had no problem using one of her pit bulls to be the bad guy on a movie so I am not sure where her limits are.I am not really into Jessup but I'd rather see pit bulls into that kind of law program, where the public appreciate them and see that they aren't evil monsters, than see them out there trained to bite human beings.Maybe if the breed was treated and considered like other breeds it wouldn't be such a big deal, but it isn't.


As for your 'forceful and pathetic' training methods, you obviously have absolutely NO IDEA what you are talking about. Not a clue. And I say that with complete confidence.


I tend to think that your confidence has more to do with the fact that I don't support protection work, which is your new and improved "cool thing".I assume that we have different ideas on what "forceful and pathetic" is as well, in the training field.I associate shocking a dog for obedience issues, for example, with lack of training methods and respect for the dog.So we could not agree on training practices anyway.
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Postby mnp13 » March 31st, 2006, 10:37 am

Red wrote:
As for your 'forceful and pathetic' training methods, you obviously have absolutely NO IDEA what you are talking about. Not a clue. And I say that with complete confidence.


I tend to think that your confidence has more to do with the fact that I don't support protection work, which is your new and improved "cool thing".I assume that we have different ideas on what "forceful and pathetic" is as well, in the training field.I associate shocking a dog for obedience issues, for example, with lack of training methods and respect for the dog.So we could not agree on training practices anyway.


Oh, and we're back to Michelle is evil because she uses an e-collar :rolleyes2:

:getNew:
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Postby babyreba » March 31st, 2006, 5:56 pm

I thought the reason Connor was referred to on this forum as "retired" from therapy was because he wanted to take a bite out of a kid's arm? Am I remembering the post where that was referred to incorrectly?

I have never met Connor, so I wouldn't even try to weigh in on what he's like as a dog or what his temperament is like.

But isn't it dangerous to the breed's rep to have a dog out there in public who'd be willing to bite a spastic kid because he's been encouraged to do so in sport? And I guess in the name of work as well?
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Postby mnp13 » March 31st, 2006, 5:59 pm

Oh, and Red, I have a little quote for you...

I will also say that some of the opinions she has are valuable, too bad she lacks of social skills and when someone act like an idiot then everything is lost.I own stun guns, high voltage for protection and less voltage in case ofemergencies between the dogs.I have 4 pit bulls in the house now, I am very careful but the potential of a serious scrap is always there.A stun gun or baton is not a cattle prod.There is a huge difference in terms of pain and direct effect.Everyone is allowed to an opinion but please get informed before you think that having this device to maybe save your dog's life is so evil or only an idiot has them.

I got it for loose dogs in particular but I will use it if I am at risk to loose one of my dogs.Those of you who never broke two or more pit bulls in full fight drive don't know how quickly damage is done.It is scary and you get to a point where you don't even have breath to move but you know that you will have to find it or you loose one of your dogs.This experience will happen to everyone who handle many bulldogs in the years.A fight doesn't make anyone a bad owner, it goes with the territory, but 3 dogs killed made me think about serious management issues.
I have never used the device on my dogs but it is charged and ready if I ever need it.It is the last of my resources as I use other methods and a breaking stick.If nothing doesn't work I know where the gun is.

I find it weird that folks who use a shocking collar often sees a problem with it but I will leave it at that.


Look familiar?
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Postby Red » April 1st, 2006, 1:31 am

:ROFL2: :ROFL2: I knew you would bring that up, I was waiting!! I sort of have an idea of how desperate you get when someone doesn't kiss your rear.Ya' think I don't know about the few posts I made on this forum?I sure know, you can quote everything you like.I own a stun gun for emergencies that are out of my control, only if I risk to loose a dog.It was clearly explained on that thread.The device was taken out of the box, I made sure it worked and was never used.This house is not Jessup's back yard, serious scraps are rare.One injury in about 5 years of fostering bulldogs, not too bad.You, on the other hand , use shock collars to fix your lack of training skills on a regular bases..And you think you can get back at me for keeping a stun gun in the house??Something that won't never be used unless I can't get two dogs apart?ROFL!!


I thought the reason Connor was referred to on this forum as "retired" from therapy was because he wanted to take a bite out of a kid's arm? Am I remembering the post where that was referred to incorrectly?


I think I posted on a thread where Demo was saying that Connor would take someone's finger off if they approached him when crated.At dog shows and inside the house.At this point I don't think he would see any problem with his dog's temperament.
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Postby mnp13 » April 1st, 2006, 8:00 am

Red wrote:I knew you would bring that up, I was waiting!!


Actually, that quote was provided to me. I never saw the original thread. I would seem that you are ok with what YOU are ok with. But no one else knows any better.

Everyone is allowed to an opinion but please get informed before you think that having this device to maybe save your dog's life is so evil or only an idiot has them.


This covers the entire discussion quite well actually.

Red wrote:I sort of have an idea of how desperate you get when someone doesn't kiss your rear.


wow, you really don't have any idea what you are talking about. lol

Red wrote:You, on the other hand , use shock collars to fix your lack of training skills on a regular bases..


Really? I use an e-collar to proof recall and some off leash work. Ruby's hasn't been out of her training bag since Christmas when I let her run at camp in the snow. Oh, I know, with your superior training skills your dog will call off a running deer. Sorry, I'm just not at your superior skill and I'm not willing to spend 5 hours hunting through 130 acres of woods in the winter looking for my dog and hoping she hasn't been shot or hit by a car on the highway on the other side. I'd rather know that if she does something stupid or dangerous that I have a much better chance of getting her to listen to me.

I don't view an e-collar as any different than a prong collar or other compulsion based training method. It's just remote and carrys the non-PC label of shock I hope you campaign as strongly against invisible fence and bark collars.

I thought the reason Connor was referred to on this forum as "retired" from therapy was because he wanted to take a bite out of a kid's arm? Am I remembering the post where that was referred to incorrectly?


No, that's not incorrect, but not completely in context. If you have ever seen bitework, there is a motion that decoys do to illicet a prey bite. The decoy rotates and lifts the arm in one motion, bringing the bite to the back upper arm area. Connor was new to bite work and in a hallway a 'kid' bigger than Demo was wearing a winter jacket (i.e. looks like a bite jacket) did that same motion when Connor walked towards/past him. Connor's reaction was to show a little more interest than we thought was a good idea. He was not lunging, snarling and snapping, he had allerted on and was pulling towards what he perceived as what he had seen at training. The result was us deciding that with 150 "kids" (ages 3-18), almost the same number of adults, 10 therapy dogs, etc etc etc that it was not the best situation to have Connor in at that time. Too much, too soon, too crazy. He mostly got the certification to have the certification, not with the intention of getting involved with regular visits.

ETA There were a number of people who witnessed it when it happened. No one saw anything out of the ordinary, it was only us who recognised it. More than one person who saw it asked why Connor was leaving.

Red wrote:I think I posted on a thread where Demo was saying that Connor would take someone's finger off if they approached him when crated.At dog shows and inside the house.At this point I don't think he would see any problem with his dog's temperament.


Connor is "crate aggressive". I have my own opinions on that one. He barks at people and puts on a good show. I am of the opinion that he wouldn't bite, but Demo is of a different opinion. Connor also likes to sneak attack and be quiet until someone is next to the crate and then bark at them to scare the crap out of them.

Connor has never been to a dog show.
Michelle

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Postby DemoDick » April 2nd, 2006, 1:44 am

At this point I don't think he would see any problem with his dog's temperament.


Not true. One problem with his temperament...he pees on people to assert dominance.

Actually, I don't see that as a problem. It's really funny.

So yes, your statement is correct.

Demo Dick
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Postby Red » April 2nd, 2006, 4:07 am

Actually, that quote was provided to me. I never saw the original thread.


Okkkey...not only you saw that thread but you posted on it, Michelle. Actually you put some of my comments in bold right there, on the same thread, page 10.I want to believe that you honestly forgot you posted there cause I *know* you aren't such a liar.I also * know* that you won't delete what you posted now.That would be quite embarassing to do.
If someone else had the need to provide you with my comments indeed then they should also say what they have to say here.Otherwise they can shove it off.

http://www.pitbulltalk.com/viewtopic.php?t=419&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=180

I use an e-collar to proof recall and some off leash work. Ruby's hasn't been out of her training bag since Christmas when I let her run at camp in the snow. Oh, I know, with your superior training skills your dog will call off a running deer.


No super training skills here, never said anything even close to that. My dogs might not be able to be called off of a dear.If I don't get to that point with respectful training methods I won't solve my lack of training skills shocking the dog.I have been tempted here and there but decided that there are other options.Maybe in the future I will improve but untill then I simply don't put my dogs in the situation to chase a deer.It is just that simple.

Connor has never been to a dog show.


Okey, I will use the word you used when a member asked if Connor goes to dog shows...dog trails.I cecked cause I was sure I have read it somewhere.


es, the dogs go to dog trials, it's not a hard thing to manage - you keep people away from the crates. I don't think it is unreasonable to tell people to leave your dog alone in the crate.


Now to me that is a problem, to tell people to stay away from a pit bull's crate.If it is one of my own dogs I don't need to do it but then again if I did I wouldn't probably leave the dog crated where a stranger might go near it.In dog trials people happen to walk by crates.
I think I would be embarassed in saying "oh this pit bull is nice but don't stick your fingers in the crate unless you want to loose them".

I see problems here too:

The thought of random person taking him out to take a leak is pretty uncomfortable for me. Would he be okay? I'm 99% sure of it. However, that 1% is one hell of a gamble for a dog that can literally cripple you for life.


Why would we want to not see a problem there? If someone accepts that kind of temperament and act responsibly I guess that it is their choice to own the animal.I am not arguing that.Admitting that there is a problem should happen though.I haven't seen Connor so I am only going by what I read here.
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Postby Mike A. » April 2nd, 2006, 1:21 pm

Good point Chris. What are they afraid about? APBT wre not made to be human agressive, they wre bread to fight other dogs. What irony that the same type of people that made them for that purpose, now hate them(APBT). In my opinon they have a place in pp work, In general APBT temperments are better with human then any other breed. Most of the attacks that occur with this breed is do to fact that the owner is not resposible in correctly training and maintaining their dogs. Its just like having your dog in the car with the windows up and you are getting attack outside, and your dog cannot get to you. In PP you as a handler have to put your dog in a position that he/she can protect you and win. It goes the same for being an owner of a APBT. Serveys show that Labs., Chows, Sheperds, and so on have more human attacks then the American PitBull.

Thank you for your time


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Postby mnp13 » April 2nd, 2006, 5:52 pm

Red wrote:
Actually, that quote was provided to me. I never saw the original thread.


Okkkey...not only you saw that thread but you posted on it, Michelle. Actually you put some of my comments in bold right there, on the same thread, page 10.I want to believe that you honestly forgot you posted there cause I *know* you aren't such a liar.I also * know* that you won't delete what you posted now.That would be quite embarassing to do.
If someone else had the need to provide you with my comments indeed then they should also say what they have to say here.Otherwise they can shove it off.

http://www.pitbulltalk.com/viewtopic.php?t=419&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=180


oops... I totally forgot I posted on that thread, I didn't even remember reading it. My apologies. Nope, I won't delete what I already posted. I'm ok with my foot in my mouth... happens to everyone sometimes. :oops:
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Postby mnp13 » April 2nd, 2006, 6:08 pm

Red wrote:
I use an e-collar to proof recall and some off leash work. Ruby's hasn't been out of her training bag since Christmas when I let her run at camp in the snow. Oh, I know, with your superior training skills your dog will call off a running deer.


No super training skills here, never said anything even close to that. My dogs might not be able to be called off of a dear.If I don't get to that point with respectful training methods I won't solve my lack of training skills shocking the dog.I have been tempted here and there but decided that there are other options.Maybe in the future I will improve but untill then I simply don't put my dogs in the situation to chase a deer.It is just that simple.


I am fortunate enough to have access to my parent's camp, where the dogs are allowed to run around, swim, play fetch, etc. Deer aren't usually around the area, but occasionally we see them. My parent's dog has a bad history with porcpuines, and they are plentiful. I love letting Ruby run, she gets a few days of more than 10 hours of freedom. Most of that time is spent sleeping in the sun, and digging up my mom's gardens, but it's free time for her. Connor runs until he is so tired that we have to force him to take a nap. He literally starts tripping over his own feet.

I'll happily use an e-collar to give them that freedom. I'll also freely admit that Ruby is collar smart, which is why I actually have to use it far less often. All she needs is to feel it on and she is little miss perfict angel.

Connor has never been to a dog show.


Okey, I will use the word you used when a member asked if Connor goes to dog shows...dog trails.I cecked cause I was sure I have read it somewhere.


Yes, he's been to a dog trial, but as it the trials are working dog trials no one in their right minds would ever stick their fingers through a crate door. Even the kids at the trials know better - though my neice did that once and he didn't move a muscle. I spanked her butt for it though. Kid wise, dog in crate = leave dog alone. No exceptions. Ever.

I think dog shows and more social events have people who are more apt to do that. Frankly, I don't care what breed is in the crate, it is a plain old stupid thing to do.

Riggs barks his fool head off in his crate, because he doesn't like being in there all that much; especially when there are more interesting things going on outside the crate. To the unknowing person he will probably look aggressive, I can't be responsible for educating every person every minute.

Yes, the dogs go to dog trials, it's not a hard thing to manage - you keep people away from the crates. I don't think it is unreasonable to tell people to leave your dog alone in the crate.


Now to me that is a problem, to tell people to stay away from a pit bull's crate.If it is one of my own dogs I don't need to do it but then again if I did I wouldn't probably leave the dog crated where a stranger might go near it.In dog trials people happen to walk by crates.
I think I would be embarassed in saying "oh this pit bull is nice but don't stick your fingers in the crate unless you want to loose them".


As I said, this goes for any breed of dog. I don't care what it is. If Connor is being a wack job, we cover the crate with a sheet. Even Ruby gets wound up sometimes and barks, and she is about as non aggressive a dog as I have ever seen in my life.
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Postby Romanwild » April 2nd, 2006, 6:46 pm

Another thing to keep in mind with Connor is that he is a true working dog. He gets paid gigs!

I've been around Connor and Ruby. Played with both of them. So has Dreyfus. I am not uncomfortable at all around either of them. I'm no expert but I know when I am around a "dangerous" dog. Connor has scared the crap out of me twice with his little crate joke though. :rolleyes2: The little dink. lol

I have decided that I will use a RTC with my pooches. After I have put one on and tested it on myelf. lol. Used responsibly it is no more cruel then a prong or choke chain correction.

I also think that stun batons are a awesome idea for breaking up a dog fight. Especially when alone or with multiple dogs. It' the modern break stick! Again, usded responsibly.

Both tools could save your dogs life. :|
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