Tess and trust and passive aggression

This forum is all about training and behavior. Everything from potty training to working titles!

Postby dogcrazyjen » March 31st, 2006, 10:25 am

Well, It has been a few weeks since I was given some good advice on Tess and her reactiveness to certain situations. trust came up a lot, and we have been actively working on that.

I have pinpointed the sequence of events a little better as well. It turns out she will get in a situation that she doesn't want to do something (ie come in the house when she wants to go out to play frisbee for example). I will call her, and she will not come. She is hopeful at this point I will join her, and seems happy. I go to get her, and if I reach for her collar to pull her in the house she gets really wiggy-her ears go back, tail down, eyes wide, and would air snap if I got my hand next to her collar. I have avoided this by using a leash as a noose and from a bit of a distance nabbing her. Once the leash is tight, she comes willingly after a breaf check to see if she can pull out of the collar. Once in the house she is fine, usually she runs to her crate a little worried, but i can hold her coolar without incident. Usually these are situations where I need to leave and she has to get in her crate. I always reward her in her crate, but sometimes it is not enough.

*edit to add, we have a sunroom that you have to go through to get out the door to outside. She will stand next to the slider in the sunroom, but I need her in the main house behind a regular door, as I do not trust sliding glass doors*

The other day, this happened, and she was naked. I tried a treat, no go. I actually was able to place a large collar over her head, but she pulled out. So I found a tighter one, and smiling after a deep breath, and talking nice but not shrill, I placed the collar on her with no major fear reaction, and was able to lead her in the house on leash. I then rewarded her when she came in. Turned out she didn't need to go in the crate, which was fortuitous.

My question is, now that we are starting to deal with the trust, I need her to do what I ask when I ask. Sometimes it will be things she does not want to do, she needs to do them anyway. I rarely ask her to do these things, and she is always compensated. This is where my positive training is failing me, I cannot do a normal correction on her of puttng her away, because she will start a fear reaction and we will back slide. However the passive- aggressive- use- my- fear- as- a- crutch -to- get- away- with- crap has got to stop as well.

Any suggestions would be appreciated.
dogcrazyjen
Devoutly Bully
 
Posts: 922
Location: FingerLakes NY

Postby DemoDick » March 31st, 2006, 11:29 am

This is where my positive training is failing me, I cannot do a normal correction on her of puttng her away, because she will start a fear reaction and we will back slide.


Are you saying that you crate the dog as a correction?

Demo Dick
"My first priority will be to reinstate the assault weapons ban PERMANENTLY as soon as I take office...I intend to work with Congress on a national no carry law, 1 gun a month purchase limits, and bans on all semi-automatic guns."-Barack Obama
"When in doubt, whip it out."-Nuge
User avatar
DemoDick
They Like to Fondle My Gun
 
Posts: 1910
Location: New York

Postby Malli » March 31st, 2006, 2:23 pm

Assuming that you don't crate her for punishment...

Perhaps its the emotion you put into the correction? I have heard it mentioned time and again that the softest dog in the world can take a hard correction without emotion.

Or perhaps its time to stop feeling sorry for her?

Some NILIF may be in order, and also a secure flat collar and short lead in the house as a constant...

Malli
User avatar
Malli
E-I-E-I-O!
 
Posts: 6341
Location: CANADA EH?

Postby dogcrazyjen » March 31st, 2006, 2:45 pm

No, she should be in a crate when we leave and also so her sister can come out, not as a punishment. When I have to leave, or it is Tallulahs turn out, I take a kong or a treat and go up stairs to the crate, and 95% of the time she comes right with me, no problems. Usually she beats me up there and is waiting in the crate.

*I do crate the other two as punishment-ie the game ends no more anything if they will not behave. However both these dogs are bombproof in the crate. Tess came with crate issues, so this has not been done with her. Perhaps it is a reminant of those issues? She has not had issues in the crate at all in months. *

Once in a while she doesn't want to go. Usually if I take her out and she finds a disc, or the moon is full, she just plain old doesn't want to go where I need her to go. That is when the battle happens. I personally think the old owner must have used the collar to correct the dog physically, because reaching for the collar when she knows she is doing something wrong is the trigger. Even if I am not upset AT ALL, she does this. She does not want to be forced to do anything. My son, who has never raised his voice in his life, went to get the dog and she did this to him too-I now have a strict hands off policy for the kids when she needs to go somewhere. My husband, however, just picks her bodily up and puts her in the crate. No reaction. :|

I think she doesn't want to do something, knows she is supposed to do it, then panics at the thought of getting corrected. She knows come Tess, I am not asking her anything she doesn't understand. She is choosing not to behave. What has worked is not letting her get away with it while also avoiding the trigger behaviors of reaching for the collar by noosing her.

I would just like for her not to be getting to the point of avoiding behaviors period. I do not feel like there is anything I can do for punishment, but there is no way of rewarding either.

I have sat next to her crate and called her over, she obviously thinks we will be going into the crate. i just pet her, pull on her collar while she is in my lap, talk to her, and she is great. Then we go downstairs. But I feel this is not really addressing the situation of choosing when to avoid.
dogcrazyjen
Devoutly Bully
 
Posts: 922
Location: FingerLakes NY

Postby mnp13 » March 31st, 2006, 3:54 pm

I'd start over with her on this one. She needs to learn to trust you, and you must be consistant to gain that trust. Get a light long line and put it on her when she goes outside. When you want her to come inside pick it up and walk to her or call her and reel her in. Keep a drag line on her at all times and never ever give a command you can't back up.

If you call her and she doesn't come, reel her in as if she is coming to you all on her own. It's just matter of fact, here she comes. When you get her infront of you, tell her to sit and then give her a treat, and in you go.

She seems to be afraid due to what her previous owner did to her; you have to overcome mistrust that someone else installed, so you're starting out behind.... Absolute consistancy will help this.
Michelle

Inside me is a thin woman trying to get out. I usually shut the bitch up with a martini.
User avatar
mnp13
Evil Overlord
 
Posts: 17232
Location: Rochester, NY

Postby dogcrazyjen » March 31st, 2006, 4:09 pm

She is not doing this outside off lead, the only time she is normally off lead outside is when we are playing disc, and she ALWAYS comes to me for that. She is in the house when this happens. She goes (usually) in the sunroom, which is still indoors but separated by a door to the main house.

I took your advice about the trust issues, and it has been going very well. I am managing most of these situations before they happen, but once and a while they will happen, usually when our guard is down. She has not actually air snapped me in months, and did it once to my 15 year old a month and a half ago. We have been doing much better.

I guess I am looking for how to discipline or coerce a dog when they are being passive aggressive and trying to get away with not listening. Or is noosing her just the way to go? It is working so far, and she is reacting less each time. But as I said, she still once and a while pulls the "i don't want to" and I think that has nothing to do with trust.


I agree, I am starting on a negative here, I guess maybe just continued patience is needed. I just do not like letting her get away with not listening, I am worried it is setting a bad precident.
dogcrazyjen
Devoutly Bully
 
Posts: 922
Location: FingerLakes NY

Postby mnp13 » March 31st, 2006, 4:13 pm

I'd keep a drag line on her in the house. Don't give her the opportunity to not listen. I don't think the loose is helping your cause.

I'm glad the other things are working for you!!!!!!
Michelle

Inside me is a thin woman trying to get out. I usually shut the bitch up with a martini.
User avatar
mnp13
Evil Overlord
 
Posts: 17232
Location: Rochester, NY

Postby dogcrazyjen » March 31st, 2006, 5:48 pm

I know I probably sound defensive, I am trying not to and i really appreciate your advice.

edited to add- I forgot to say i am going to calling hours and a funeral, so I will not be posting until tomorrow night earliest. I didn't want anyone to think I was mad about any advice given.

Again, thanks!
dogcrazyjen
Devoutly Bully
 
Posts: 922
Location: FingerLakes NY


Return to Training & Behavior

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users

cron