i thought this might be a good topic...

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Postby chance's mom » March 28th, 2006, 9:08 pm

lisa posted this in another thread and i thought it would make a good discussio, i know its something i have heard other people ask....

I really don't have my dogs for the purpose of protection. But I like the training challenge. Can I train for this sport without making a dog defensive or causing a drive mentality that would make it hard to work in other sports?


what do you think?
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Postby Chris Fraize » March 28th, 2006, 10:27 pm

Here is your answer.

U-WP, U-CD, ‘PR’ Punchlines Bronx Tale ASR EL, PrPD, ID, CGC/TDI

Winner of the 2003 Dog Sports Open Personal Protection Tournament
(score of 397 out of 400 possible.)

3rd Place K-9 Pro Sports Nationals 2003

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Postby Malli » March 29th, 2006, 3:52 am

absolutely I think so too!

Lots of the time I think that the difference between the real scenario and any situation in protection training are entirely seperate in the dog's mind. From what the people I met at a recent Schutzhund Trial have said, a lot of dogs will not even think to bite without the sleeve(or even if its on the wrong arm :rolleyes2: ), its all a game to them, just like any other training would be (and theres even a little cross over to agility in Schutzhund, too!)

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Postby mnp13 » March 29th, 2006, 9:05 am

In Schutzhund the dogs target the sleeve and only the sleeve. No sleeve, no bite. Most people that I know do not consider Schutzhund to be protection training.

In protection training the dogs (should be) taught to ignore equipment.
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Postby Malli » March 29th, 2006, 5:00 pm

Oh, so protection training is all "civil" type stuff??

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Postby mnp13 » March 29th, 2006, 5:44 pm

Malli wrote:Oh, so protection training is all "civil" type stuff??

Malli


no, but equpiment fixated dogs wouldn't function in a real situation either.

If a Schutzhund dog will only bite a sleeve on the right arm and never anything else, if you get mugged and that mugger is not wearing a bite sleeve on his right arm, can you depend on that dog to protect you?
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Postby pocketpit » March 29th, 2006, 6:24 pm

If you like the challenge and your dog has lots of prey drive then it's very possible to train for a sport and still have a dog than can compete in other arenas as usual.

A sport dog can be exactly that, a dog that walks on the field and performs purely for sport. They do it because the "game" is a fun outlet for their desire to run and play tug.
It's the reason I chose to pursue French Ring with Brooks. She really enjoyed it and I knew that there was no "real life" scenario she'll ever respond to. It's a training challenge and an excellent way to showcase her willingness to work and her mental soundness. She is also titled in conformation, obedience, agility and weight pulling.
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Postby Malli » March 29th, 2006, 8:32 pm

thanks for clarifying michelle :)
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Postby odnarb » March 29th, 2006, 10:15 pm

Another good all-rounder. Not a bulldog, but here is Harry's mum...

Calice du Dantero FRII, SchBH, CD, HCT-s, TF-II, FD

Major pointed (BOB)
2003 NARA FRI Vice Champion
First Breeder/HOT FRII Female in NARA history
First dog in NARA to earn the FRII in back to back trials on the same weekend
2nd place Gold Coast K9 Working Dog Competition
3rd Place AZ Working Dog Competition

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Postby Red » March 30th, 2006, 12:06 am

I eally don't have my dogs for the purpose of protection. But I like the training challenge. Can I train for this sport without making a dog defensive or causing a drive mentality that would make it hard to work in other sports?


I'd say the following to this person, if she owns pit bulls....since there are bundaries crossed for a sound pit bull to bite a human being I would say that you are better off not to looking into protection training.Leave that to folks who think they are great trainers for having a bulldog who will take a bite out of a human being not wearing a sleeve.Either the dog is trained againts his nature or it is an ill tempered animal.Someone is missing the beauty of this breed.Too bad they have big words for basically a lot of bullshit. :)
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Postby Malli » March 30th, 2006, 2:23 am

wow, Odnarb, thats awesome!

Sounds like Harry comes from a line of great dogs!

It don't matter he's not a bully, he's still a dog :) And a cool one at that! Those Malinios are quick on their feet, so light! (I had the privilage of seeing a few do some work recently :D )

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Postby mnp13 » March 30th, 2006, 11:13 am

Red wrote:Too bad they have big words for basically a lot of bull.


I think you are being introspective on this one.
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Postby cheekymunkee » March 30th, 2006, 11:16 am

odnarb wrote:Another good all-rounder. Not a bulldog, but here is Harry's mum...

Calice du Dantero FRII, SchBH, CD, HCT-s, TF-II, FD

Major pointed (BOB)
2003 NARA FRI Vice Champion
First Breeder/HOT FRII Female in NARA history
First dog in NARA to earn the FRII in back to back trials on the same weekend
2nd place Gold Coast K9 Working Dog Competition
3rd Place AZ Working Dog Competition

Image

Cali's Page


Not only all THAT stuff but looks FABULOUS in a hula skirt!
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Postby odnarb » March 30th, 2006, 12:34 pm

cheekymunkee wrote:Not only all THAT stuff but looks FABULOUS in a hula skirt!



LOL, that was taken at a breast cancer fundraiser. Check out these pics of her friend's dog competing in the grass skirt! Image

http://www.dantero.com/photos.php?k1=echo&k2=echo&s=breast_cancer_fundraiser
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Postby mnp13 » March 30th, 2006, 12:37 pm

HOLY CRAP THAT'S FUNNY!!!!!!!!

There was a rugby tournament called 'Formal 7's' and everyone had to wear prom dresses for the games. I wasn't there, but heard it was beyond hysterical.

The distractions were built in on that one!

May I share that link?
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Postby cheekymunkee » March 30th, 2006, 12:43 pm

Too freaking funny!!!
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Postby Malli » March 30th, 2006, 12:56 pm

omg, thats histerical, I'm surprised the helper could do his job and keep a straight face!!

At least her costume doesn't phase her...


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Postby odnarb » March 30th, 2006, 6:14 pm

mnp13 wrote:
May I share that link?




Sure!
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Postby Pitcrew » April 3rd, 2006, 10:03 pm

I guess since the quote originated with me... I should really clarify the question. It isn't so much CAN I?... but HOW?
Since my first amstaf was titled in obedience, agility, weight pull, and schutzhund (only competed in lower levels, trained higher) I know protection sports are compatible with other sports. I guess since a lot of the dogs I personally know trying to do multiple sports (none of them bullies) either have trouble controlling too much drive (DRIVE... NOT AGGRESSON) for some sports... or, the other sports take the drive out of the protection. They all seem really good at something, but not so good at the rest. Something suffers. I don't want our agility to suffer.

How do you balance drives in different sports... to EXCELL in several sports? (Chris, insert answer here :D )

Example; I also see border collies who really excel in agility (super high drive) who also herd sheep, usually have trouble competing as well in herding. And obedience dogs often dont have the drive to excell in herding. How do you balance these drives to excel in both without over/under doing another.

Red, Notice I said DRIVE... not AGRESSION. Perhaps this is why YOU do not understand the NATURE of the breed. If you want to protect our breed form being "profiled" as aggressive (and judged by knowledgeable people on an individual basis like any other dog)... maybe you shouldn't jump so quick to judge a dogs "aggression" by what you PERCEIVE to be an aggressive act. Know the dogs, evaluate their behavior. Protection training DOES NOT = aggressive temperament or behavior towards people, when done properly.
Aren't you trying to teach people not to judge, what they don't understand? Do you view protection differently for other breeds? When a Dobe or Pressa bites is it because they were bred to be people aggressive... but if its a Pit it must be bad temperment/owners, or abused because they weren't bred to be people aggressive?

The intensity you see in some dogs, in some sports... is controlled by, drive. It should not be confused with aggression. Otherwise the way some border collies appear to herd, would be called hunting. The dogs know the difference... and you can see the difference when you know what you are looking at.
The fearful and aggressive dogs, and idiot handlers are usually weeded out by good trainers. That affects their reputation.
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