This has probably been adressed before...

Postby call2arms » June 10th, 2008, 9:07 pm

Someone who feeds Iams, and likes to walk their dogs twice a day might just deworm their pets!! I work for a vet, I also go to school that has a clinic who sees LOADS of very low-income clients, and I can tell you from my experience that not everybody who feeds Iam's and Pedigree doesn't give a sh*t about their pet's health. Some people just don't know and need top be informed, sure, but they may also be doing the right thing by following a deworming schedule, speutering, exercising their dog right (not necessarily by doing dog sports).

I personally think raw is nice but does that make me a "irresponsible" pet owner since I'm not interested???? Is my kibble high-end enough for you??? My dog only went to formal obed classes, and we don't really practice, gee... I only play frisbee and tug and ball with her, what am I doing on this forum?

I'm one to be discouraged by human nature, byt every day I'm surprised by owners that -god- don't necessarily feed their dog great food, just average kibble - royal canin, whatever, and they actually pick up those little signs. Oh, we must have some very special clients.


For SOME people, raw is a trend. Sorry. I've seen it with my own crazy eyes. Not that it should.

My first actual question, which you don't seem to have caught, is "What kind of precautions fdo you take"... Yes, regarding raw feeding. Wether this offended you to the point of basically refuting every word I'm saying, I don't know, but I'M sorry I have seemed to have ruffled your feathers. I have agreed that it is very common that dogs will get worms through transplacental/transmammary routes, what else do you want me to say?

Anyway...
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Postby amazincc » June 10th, 2008, 9:31 pm

Well... I WAS one of those people who fed commercial kibble, simply because I had no idea that high-end kibble or RAW even existed. Did I care any less about my dogs? Nope.
Were/are they enrolled anywhere for activities? Nope.
We walk, we hike, we bike, we swim... we play fetch and tug and whatever else they enjoy. We don't have a club in my area that I could join, but we make do.

As for vet care - Mick had only gotten the most basic care after he developed his "issues"... necessary shots. I did, however, catch anything and everything (cataracts, tumors on his head and legs) as soon as it developed, simply by daily interaction/petting/grooming.
Since he almost died from worm infestation when I got him I have his stool checked at least twice a year and he has been worm-free since five months of age. When I started him on RAW I brought in stool samples more frequently, and so far, so good. :)

My point being - until I joined here, not one vet had EVER discussed my dogs diet w/me, and the dog owners I DID know fed their dogs whatever was available at Wal-Mart/local grocery store. The more expensive kibble equaled "caring" about your dogs health, and Ole Roy was frowned upon, regardless.

Now that I KNOW better, I DO better. But all in all, I care and worry just as much as I did before... I just have BETTER tools now to make sure that my guys get what they need.
Feeding RAW is a little more involved and does take doing some research. :wink:

Having grown up in an era where kibble was considered "fancy" and dogs were fed table scraps - I've become pretty enlightened, if I do say so myself. lol
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Postby Magnolia618 » June 10th, 2008, 9:46 pm

Excellent post!
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Postby DemoDick » June 10th, 2008, 10:30 pm

Someone who feeds Iams, and likes to walk their dogs twice a day might just deworm their pets!! I work for a vet, I also go to school that has a clinic who sees LOADS of very low-income clients, and I can tell you from my experience that not everybody who feeds Iam's and Pedigree doesn't give a sh*t about their pet's health. Some people just don't know and need top be informed, sure, but they may also be doing the right thing by following a deworming schedule, speutering, exercising their dog right (not necessarily by doing dog sports).


Where in the world did you get the idea that I think that everyone who feeds commercial food is "doesn't give a sh*t about their pet's health?" You are reading WAY too far into what I am saying. Please go back and re-read what I wrote. I don't know how to make it any clearer.

I personally think raw is nice but does that make me a "irresponsible" pet owner since I'm not interested????


Please show me where I said anyone who doesn't feed raw is "irresponsible".

Is my kibble high-end enough for you??? My dog only went to formal obed classes, and we don't really practice, gee... I only play frisbee and tug and ball with her, what am I doing on this forum?


Your level of defensiveness and passive aggression betrays insecurity regarding your position. I can't be the only one seeing it. I was pointing out that the AVERAGE, a raw feeder is likely to be more in tune with potential problems. They are ON AVERAGE, more likely to look at their dogs with a more scrutinous, critical eye than the AVERAGE pet owner. Just like a car enthusiast who tunes his own engines and races on the weekends is going to hear, see, or feel differences in his car BEFORE the average driver. This doesn't mean that the AVERAGE pet owner waits until the dog is on death's door. Nor does it mean that the AVERAGE raw feeder has the ability to immediately pick up on illness. Nowhere in any of my posts did I make an absolutist statement. Please don't try to argue that I did.

I'm one to be discouraged by human nature, byt every day I'm surprised by owners that -god- don't necessarily feed their dog great food, just average kibble - royal canin, whatever, and they actually pick up those little signs. Oh, we must have some very special clients.


Why the sarcasm?

For SOME people, raw is a trend. Sorry. I've seen it with my own crazy eyes. Not that it should.


I never disputed that for some people it is. In fact, I specifically said that some people do indeed approach it that way and that they are going about it wrong. I'll quote myself here, since it doesn't seem like you read it or understood my point the first time:

People who feed raw incorrectly are making a mistake that can damage their dog's health. We all know this. Raw is not a "trend" nor should it be approached as such. It is not a question of what is fashionable this season, it is a question of what is the best option for the majority of dogs based on biology and evolution, BLANCED OUT with what the owner can/will feasibly do. This may mean that the dog will be better served with commercial food. (emphasis added)--Demo Dick


Please re-read the last sentence that I italicized for you.

My first actual question, which you don't seem to have caught, is "What kind of precautions fdo you take"... Yes, regarding raw feeding.


I, as well as others, have already answered this.

Wether this offended you to the point of basically refuting every word I'm saying, I don't know, but I'M sorry I have seemed to have ruffled your feathers.


I'm not offended. I have repeatedly said in this thread that I don't believe raw requires any more precautions than any other type of feeding. In fact, as I said before, the very best first line of defense against any illness, parasite, or infection, is a healthy, robust immune system, which I believe in the majority of dogs is facilitated by a balanced and appropriate raw diet.

I have agreed that it is very common that dogs will get worms through transplacental/transmammary routes, what else do you want me to say?


I wasn't talking about either of those. I was talking about getting worms from parks, feces, etc.

It seems like you came into this thread with the assumption that raw feeding results in dogs becoming exposed to and infested with worms and that, obviously, we raw feeders must take precautions against this that kibble feeders do not. My point was that raw feeding does NOT increase a dog's likelihood of getting worms and that we pretty much do what everyone else does.

Anyway...
Dude, you win. I can't get anything through to you, whatever. It's just exhausting discussing with you.


It helps to read what I actually did write and respond to that, instead of arguing against a position I never took.

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Postby call2arms » June 11th, 2008, 8:20 am

Oh. My. GOD. Defensiveness? That's quite a statement coming from you. YOU were the one to jump DEFENDING how raw could not hurt your dogs, while I was asking a question. I think WE BOTH need to read properly here... And your last post still sounds defensive IMO.

My so-called passive-agressive tone, oh well. What do you want me to say, my education doesn't count, my vet teachers aren't right, only you are. I guess I'll just stop paying for my education and listen to YOU instead, because my parasitology teacher who's also been doing microbiology, working in freaking hospitals and vet hospitals clearly knows nothing about parasites, or animals, or anything... Sorry for the sarcasm here, but that's just something that's been rubbing me the wrong way this whole thread.

You said "raw is not a trend", I had my glasses on. Quote: Raw is not a "trend" nor should it be approached as such. At least we agree it should not be a trend. I see the results of it being a trend.

You never took a position? Or is it you just never took in and acknowledged my point of view, and are just completely rejecting it? Maybe I overread your statements, but so do you with mine - when I give an example of someone who feeds raw and doesn't care properly for his animal, I just mean that not everybody who does feed raw is a bright light (and THAT is a generality amongst the human population - and pet owners), when I give examples of people who feed kibble and care very well for theit pets, that does not count as average, to you it's exceptions. Take it the way you want, I know what I see.

You say I don't read you properly, I feel like you're reading me and whatever I try to bring on the table just slides off your back like water on a duck. THAT is what makes discussing with you exhausting. I cite an example (granted, with a sarcastic tone), you answer "Why sarcasm?"... We're going somewhere with that.

When you say I implied dogs fed raw were exposed to worms... To you, they're not, ok. Fine. Please refer to the upper paragraph where I will stop my education. My question at the start of the post WAS NOT meant to start a debate, this has been done over and over a million times, and it's just a "agree to disagree" type thing. Dogs who feed raw here don't have worms, that's awesome. I understand that, my brains can process that, and it makes me happy for all these dogs. People do deworm (at least the majority of who answered my question). I got my answer and much, much more things I wasn't looking for (but I guess I should have expected)...

Quote: Please show me where I said anyone who doesn't feed raw is "irresponsible". (by the way you're generalizing my response a tad bit here, I mentioned ME, not anyone and everyone)...

Re-quote where you answer yourself: "I was pointing out that the AVERAGE, a raw feeder is likely to be more in tune with potential problems. They are ON AVERAGE, more likely to look at their dogs with a more scrutinous, critical eye than the AVERAGE pet owner. Just like a car enthusiast who tunes his own engines and races on the weekends is going to hear, see, or feel differences in his car BEFORE the average driver. This doesn't mean that the AVERAGE pet owner waits until the dog is on death's door. Nor does it mean that the AVERAGE raw feeder has the ability to immediately pick up on illness." The underlined little part up there is just that. Please don't argue? Points of view are always arguable. I think my opinion is clear, here it is hashed and re-hashed again:

IMO, yes people who feed raw are generally careful about their dog's health, BUT so can be the average kibble feeder, no matter what you think. Feeding raw does not make people become medical whizzes, and feeding kibble doesn't make you blind - those are extreme examples for lyrical purposes only, please understand the meaning here. I see results of both in my work and in school, I believe what I see on a daily basis.

I respect the fact that you feed raw and believe it's the best for your dog, and dogs in general. You're probably right on that one. But you don't need to, excuse the expression, "put raw on a pedestal". To me that's just how you come off, and quite frankly that's not the best way to make your point come across. I tried to be bring up references, dug back in my school books, in the start of this thread, but at some point it just turned into an ugly "I'm right, you're not" thread, not informative anymore, useless debate.

Alright, got more packing to do - on a plane in 13 hours!!!! I'll be back later.
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Postby call2arms » June 11th, 2008, 8:23 am

Whoaaa.... I thought I had posted something right after Christine's post..:crazy2:
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Postby KJS » June 11th, 2008, 8:24 am

amazincc wrote: I LOVE sushi.


ME TOO!!!! :mrgreen:
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Postby pitbullmamaliz » June 11th, 2008, 8:25 am

Just a gentle reminder that the "ignore" buttons work...
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Postby Magnolia618 » June 11th, 2008, 8:25 am

Mmmm.... Sushi...
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Postby amazincc » June 11th, 2008, 8:29 am

call2arms wrote:Whoaaa.... I thought I had posted something right after Christine's post..:crazy2:


What happened to it??? :shock:
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Postby call2arms » June 11th, 2008, 8:34 am

I don't know, I think I might not have pressed post, but I remember reading your post on your previous life experiences before I composed it. It started by something like, Christine, you're the prefect example of what I meant by kibble feeder who cares well for her dogs.

Sincerely,I am not by any means implying anything was deleted here. I think I might just be going crazy not pressing my "post" button and closing the forum thinking I posted something.

I really have to go pack instead of procrastinating on here...
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Postby amazincc » June 11th, 2008, 8:44 am

Yesssss, go pack!!! Are you moving ? I'm sure there is a post somewhere about it that I must've missed. lol
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Postby call2arms » June 11th, 2008, 8:45 am

I'm not moving, I'm off on a plane to Ireland in 11 hourssssss!!!!!
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Postby call2arms » June 11th, 2008, 8:47 am

Crap, I'm still not packing. Turn off the computer, turn off the computer... I purposedly woke up earlier (well, early-ish) in order to have time to do everything. Not working.


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Postby LMM » June 11th, 2008, 8:56 am

My honest take on this entire thread is that you posted here to debunk raw feeding. Your reponses amounted to "raw is reallllly great but....." I don't know if you meant to come across that way or not but it's how I am reading it. Your initial questions about people taking precautions with worms were answered but you still kept hammering away. Maybe that's because you came up against some opposition, I'm not sure. No one said whoever chooses to feed their dogs raw has become a medical whiz and whoever does not is blind. Those are two extreme examples that shouldn't have been used as they only add fuel to the fire.

Btw, I don't read Dick's posts as defensive but informative while your posts have this "but but but I said!" quality to them.

For the record to answer your initial basic question, I feed raw and I also take worming precautions.
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Postby call2arms » June 11th, 2008, 9:11 am

No.

I've read raw debates plenty of times, wasn't looking to start a new one. I'm usually not one to stir trouble.

I actually do think raw is great. I choose to feed kibble because it is more practical for me, and my dog does excellent on it. She does get the raw cow humerus to chew on with the marrow, if I was so against raw I would be giving her rawhide bones... Sorry if I came out looking "opposed" to raw but having people come up with unfounded information did make me (IMO) post informative posts at the start with some actual references. And then I got a bit irritated.

I'm just trying to apply logics of whatever I'm being taught in school to everyday life, that's why I asked the question. Not to debunk raw feeding. Some things that were posted are nonsense to me, as I'm sure I'm not making sense to some people. I'm alright with that. Nobody ever agrees with everybody, but note that here it's only raw feeding people (and it's normal - the question was towards raw feeders) who are answering for the most part and I'm trying to get my point across but it's just useless.

"No one said whoever chooses to feed their dogs raw has become a medical whiz and whoever does not is blind. Those are two extreme examples that shouldn't have been used as they only add fuel to the fire."

Remember, I said that those were two extreme examples and to read between the lines. I'm not trying to add fuel to the fire. I didn't want a fire in the first place.
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Postby BullyLady » June 11th, 2008, 9:55 am

LMM wrote:My honest take on this entire thread is that you posted here to debunk raw feeding. Your reponses amounted to "raw is reallllly great but....." I don't know if you meant to come across that way or not but it's how I am reading it. Your initial questions about people taking precautions with worms were answered but you still kept hammering away. Maybe that's because you came up against some opposition, I'm not sure. No one said whoever chooses to feed their dogs raw has become a medical whiz and whoever does not is blind. Those are two extreme examples that shouldn't have been used as they only add fuel to the fire.

Btw, I don't read Dick's posts as defensive but informative while your posts have this "but but but I said!" quality to them.

For the record to answer your initial basic question, I feed raw and I also take worming precautions.


:goodStuff:

I have to agree with Jen, Call2Arms I had participated early on in this thread but kind of stopped because it was clear that no answer any of us raw feeders could give would convince you that your parasitology teacher was wrong, which he is! You have this sort of "I am in school for animal health so I know better than you all" attitude, and it is very off putting. Guess what? I was a vet tech for two years and completed all my undergrad work to be a veterinarian. I know the basics of animal health fairly well too, but what you learn in the classroom is often very different from the truths you find out in the field.
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Postby TheRedQueen » June 11th, 2008, 10:13 am

I'm actually finding it all rather fun to read...as a former kibble-turned raw-back to kibble feeder...I'm fascinated. I had bad experiences with raw, and have gone to kibble again.

I do agree that Raw feeding has become a fad due to the internet and people spouting about how fabulous it is. I come across examples all of the time on boards and forums of people NOT DOING IT RIGHT. There are many people doing it well, but so many people just throw stuff together and assume their dog is fine...because it's RAW.
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Postby call2arms » June 11th, 2008, 10:17 am

This is not what I wanted to gove off.

I'm sorry to say I tend to believe my parasitology teacher who had been doing research for over 40 years over a handful of people who feed raw and are believe in it as hard as a rock, and have not brought any scientific or valid research articles to back themselves up.

The article I had posted were not satifying proof to you, the articles posted on the other part were not convincing to me.

I'm entitled to my opinion, no matter what kind of studies I'm undergoing.

I understand that what you learn can be different than what you see, I've been working as a vet tech/vet tech help for 2 years as well.
I have also agreed and appreciated the fact that dogs on this forum that are being fed raw do not have worms. Proof is there. I see it.

I just don't know what to say anymore, my point was simply that amongst other things that a dog will encounter, eating raw meat can, but not necessarily will pose a risk as far as worms go. Seeing as people are deworming as well, this isn't a problem anyway. That's just it! Please don't tell me it poses no risk whatsoever, because that I just don't believe.

I didn't mean to do any harm, or to come off as "superior" in any way. I'm very sorry if it came out this way.

From now on I'll make sure I stay away as far off as possible from raw topics, as I know many other people (some being very well versed as far as animal care goes) do, because I'm just plain wrong, all the time.
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Postby Magnolia618 » June 11th, 2008, 10:20 am

I just don't know what to say anymore, my point was simply that amongst other things that a dog will encounter, eating raw meat can, but not necessarily will pose a risk as far as worms go.


As can a dog going to the park.



Seeing as people are deworming as well, this isn't a problem anyway.


I actually don't de-worm my dogs. I've never had to!


That's just it! Please don't tell me it poses no risk whatsoever, because that I just don't believe.


I don't think anyone is saying that there is no risk. There is a risk in everything in life!

(I'm not trying to come off as defensive or bitchy, If I did, I'm sorry!)
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