Answers for some, information for others. (long post)

This is where to talk about Pit Bulls!

Postby Karen » March 27th, 2006, 2:41 pm

Maryellen wrote:he should be health testing his stock. to not health test is taking a crap shoot at the pups when they are born. and to cull the non working ones, well i disagree with that as well. i totally disagree and feel that no breeder regardless of who and what they are breeding for should be breeding right now..



Actually Maryellen I agree with the health testing part however I know 2 litters that are planned for this year where it is a last chance for the females as they will be too old. One has never been bred and will be spayed after the pups and the other has been a planned breeding since 2003 with the female in question having been bred 1 time, is a GR CH and health tested as is the sire. I am getting a pup out of the second litter for sure but doubt it on the first.

The first kennel's last litter was 4 years ago and the second's was 2 1/2 years. I know where all the pups of both litters are right now and those that aren't spayed or neutered have never been bred with no plans for either. The second breeder in fact has 2 from the litter ad the other 2 are in homes. The 2 in homes will 99% positively never be bred as will the male at the breeder.

When playing breeding police everything has to be looked at. The quantity breeders and the ones that do "it's only 2 litters" a year are the ones that are overboard IMO. Even Lora has a date planned for Doodle who is coming 6. Presley was her last litter but she should not breed Doodle this year and thus need to spay her because the breeding police saw things in black and white?
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Postby Maryellen » March 27th, 2006, 2:51 pm

i am just posting how i feel personally..
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Postby Karen » March 27th, 2006, 2:55 pm

Maryellen wrote:i am just posting how i feel personally..


I know that however feelings aren't always fair, right? Should people slogging away every day for rescue support, BSL, fostering, etc. put aside their plans because of a moratorium when they already had put one of at least 2 years on themselves?
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Postby Maryellen » March 27th, 2006, 3:07 pm

nothing in life is fair. however, with the way things are now, i would think the responsible ones would do the right thing and wait .. but since the responsible ones and the irresponsible ones arent, there is nothing i can do. i would at least hope that the responsible ones health test. and not breed if there are any genetic deformities.. but again, that is my personal opinion. i am just sick of going to the shelters and seeing all the dogs there. the best , when a breeder gets called that one of their dogs is found, and they say they dont want the dog back. its disgusting..

and any breeder who doesnt health test is not helping at all.. i have a dog that came from a byb, and the bills for her health are unbelievable. and yes, i thought about euthing her , but her good points outweigh her bad to me..

just because a breeder waits 2 years doesnt mean squat. all the dogs that they put out already can have litters as well... and goes on and on and on..
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Postby dogcrazyjen » March 27th, 2006, 3:51 pm

I didn't mean to impl anyone else was sucking up :oops: . I was nervous about posting such a strong opinion against the opinion of such a respected member. I just left a very volitile board about another topic after 1.5 years, and I do not want to go there again :(

I will stay on topic.

i am just sick of going to the shelters and seeing all the dogs there. the best , when a breeder gets called that one of their dogs is found, and they say they dont want the dog back. its disgusting..


I had a border/ab cross we adopted from the shelter. Turned out she was pregnant, and a month and a half later she had 10 puppies. We homed them all, but I made sure everyone had my number just in case it didn't work out. I found one in the shelter 8 months later, and gave the shelter my name and number in case they could not re-home the dog, and asked that the new home be given that number as well. To me, if you are going to breed, you need to be willing to care for all those dogs down the road if something happens. If you are not willing to do so, then breeding is unethical. Most good breeders I know will take back pups that do not work out. Most good breeders rarely have to do so.

Health testing seems a no brainer. It is a tool to narrow down possibilities. Seems odd to not use the tools available.

Part of me is very biased here, and I will admit that. I hate the idea that there are people breeding dogs when millions sit needing homes. On the other hand, if it wasn't for breeders, we would not have the breeds. Petty much a Sophie's choice there. I certainly am not the expert there.
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Postby cheekymunkee » March 27th, 2006, 3:57 pm

Jen, you are JUST as much respected here as anyone else. Just wanted to make that clear. :)
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Postby mnp13 » March 27th, 2006, 4:15 pm

dogcrazyjen wrote:I didn't mean to impl anyone else was sucking up :oops: . I was nervous about posting such a strong opinion against the opinion of such a respected member. I just left a very volitile board about another topic after 1.5 years, and I do not want to go there again


Don't worry about it. Strong opinions are fine, and no one is upset. You are 100% welcome to post about anything you have an opinion on. Please, feel free to post on the culling thread if you want to
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Postby pLaurent » March 27th, 2006, 5:09 pm

Instead of saying 'cull' or 'euthanize', lets put the cards on the table and say "kill".


That is a long-time pet peeve of mine as well and not just for pit bulls.

If people would call a spade a spade, they might have a harder time getting support. Saying "I'm going to kill puppies I bred" puts a bit of a different slant on it.

"Put to sleep", "euthanize" and "cull" are all terms I hate (except when it truly IS euthanization, the act of ending a life to end suffering due to terminal illness, injury ONLY) all sanitize what is really being done and made it sound so tidy.

They are NOT going to sleep, they are dying. It's not euthanization for healthy animals, it's putting them to death, and ditto for culling.

And it's not just the breeders who suffer if they don't do it right. I'd say little puppies drawing their last breath on a stainless steel table are paying the price too.

Sorry, just had to get that off my chest!! :D
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Postby Karen » March 27th, 2006, 6:03 pm

pLaurent wrote:"Put to sleep", "euthanize" and "cull" are all terms I hate (except when it truly IS euthanization, the act of ending a life to end suffering due to terminal illness, injury ONLY) all sanitize what is really being done and made it sound so tidy.


What about mental unsoundness? Add that in in too because it's a real dilemma. A healthy dog with a warped mind.
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Postby dogcrazyjen » March 27th, 2006, 6:31 pm

Then technically it is not healthy. I think health must include mental health as well. Testing for mental health before breeding, as Chris is doing by only breeding proven working dogs, is vital to any breeding program. He IS testing for mental health.
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Postby dogcrazyjen » March 27th, 2006, 6:34 pm

And thank you. I mean that. It is really nice to be welcome.
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Postby pLaurent » March 27th, 2006, 9:01 pm

What about mental unsoundness


If the mental unsoundness is of the type that is making a dog miserable all the time (I've heard of separation anxiety causing dogs to go through windows and injure themselves repeatedly) or making the dog a danger to anyone around it, then yes, I would say it is suffering and that suffering should be ended if nothing else works.
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Postby pitbullmamaliz » March 27th, 2006, 10:02 pm

pLaurent wrote:If the mental unsoundness is of the type that is making a dog miserable all the time (I've heard of separation anxiety causing dogs to go through windows and injure themselves repeatedly) or making the dog a danger to anyone around it, then yes, I would say it is suffering and that suffering should be ended if nothing else works.


*shuddering* My first intro to pits was a 10 month old girl who had lived in a shelter most of her life. She went through three windows and injured herself terribly with separation anxiety. We had to return her to shelter (no-kill). They're just keeping her 'cause she's so sweet otherwise. Horrible. But, we got Inara out of it.
Sorry, that was off topic but I had to share. Still haunts me.
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Postby Pitcrew » March 27th, 2006, 10:50 pm

Thanks Chris,
Luke is a.k.a. Legend's Cool Hand Luke CGC, NA, CD, NAJ, OAJ, TT
He is from Lisa Ryan-Walk, Legend Kennels. Fraja lines. Super sweet dog. AVID agility dog! Great happy worker. Not super drivey, a little on the sensitive side. If we Q (and I mean WE, if we don't it was MY fault... so what else is new, lol) he is first or second, beating the borders routinely.
He has a very straight front (upper forearm/shoulder) which I really don't like, but he is such an outstanding jumper... and a joy to watch. He really LOVES agility.
Image
Yes, I work my dogs. Maybe 'soft' sports compared to what you do, but I have dabbled in many sports for my own education, and gone deeper in others (agility) because of a severe addiction. And because I have found that to be the best sport to show off our breed in a positive light, as well as the bet way to stick it to the "fluffy butts" in their own sport. I would do it in herding too, but we aren't a 'herding breed'. Try finding a BC that will take on rough stock as well as herd chickens (which I was told you cant herd) and retrieve baby chicks (by mouth) from thick brush, unharmed. Vega does this.

My first amstaf was an line-bred X-pert. He was a hard, drivey dog who would do ANYTHING I asked. He also dabbled in herding and had the versatility, heart and drive I compare all good working bulldogs to. I wish I was more experienced when I got him, he taught me so much, but were it not for me, he could have done so much more. He was Willie,
X-pert Beers Iron Will CGC, TT, CD, SCT, Sch B, Sch AD, WD, NA
Image
I also had a GSD, certified NYS deersearch dog. Also did herding and obedience. No Sch. with her, too soft... she taught me to track and read a dog though.
My second amstaf was to be a seriously competitive obed. dog, but was retired young as a result of injury, but became a wonderful therapy dog.

I usually have one versatile dog at a time and the others I usually do one or 2 sports with. I let the dog decide what they like. I try to make work fun, and based on their structure, talent and temperament I decide what sports to try to do with them. They are all house dogs. Luke does mostly agility, may do Open obedience, plays with Freestyle, may do Sch B if I find a decent club around (not into the club scene).
Vega is my current versatility dog. She is cleaning up the agility ring, trained thru utility obedience (considering trying UKC obed. instead of AKC) and has started weight pulling. May do Rally-O, and/or Sch B, but am trying to learn more about PSA. Not sure yet. She is also my stock dog and rat hunter. She was training for SAR but I really cannot commit the time it would take to be serious.
She has NA, CGC, TDI, TT so far (at 18 mos.).
Don't have many good pics of Luke that aren't action shots. I will have to take some.
I have a pup who I think will be a good weight pull prospect. We will have to see.
I also have a rescue who isn't put together to well for sport, but may become a good therapy dog.

About the health check thing. I have to feel comfortable with the dogs and the breeders. Half of my dogs were out of tested dogs, half weren't. It is still a crap shoot. It is the responsible thing to do... but I have friends who are breeders, who test to the hilt, who I would NOT be interested in a pup from. Champions and all. They just don't meet MY standards. If I feel someone is doing all of the homework, and I can talk to the vet and see the x-rays, a piece of paper isn't going to say more for me... anymore than a registration paper or pedigree speaks for the dog.




"Pedigree indicates what the animal should be;
Conformation indicates what the animal appears to be;
But, Performance indicates what the animal actually is."
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