The TRUTH about Lila

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Postby cheekymunkee » March 25th, 2006, 11:37 pm

We have decided to reopen this thread because someone with first hand information would like to comment on the situation..
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Postby Faith » March 25th, 2006, 11:56 pm

I am writing this in response to the fact that I have been alluded to as 'the veterinarian' on several forums in reference to my involvement with and opinion of a dog called 'Lila'.

First of all, it has been stated that B & D had access to my help when Lila was in their home before the incident. This is not true.

Eric and I were not in contact during the time when D was carefully questioning what would be involved in fostering and expressing her concerns about having Lila and her puppies and their other dog under one roof.

Eric and I were back in contact approx. 2 days before the incident occurred and we did not discuss B or D. Eric called me the morning after the incident, and like everyone else who heard about this for the first time, I was upset. He asked me to handle the situation because he was naturally very upset as well. I spoke with D immediately and told her that I didn't need to know the facts about the incident and just wanted to work on the what to do regarding the remaining 12 puppies.

She and her husband were devastated.... in shock - like the rest of us (Eric, Cecy and myself). D & B were so shaken by what had happened they were considering selling their home.

There were several immediate options for the puppies. I had access to a nursing pitbull mother at another shelter that we could use (her puppies were weaned but that dog was still heavily lactating) or there is a woman where I live who is excellent with neonates and bottle feeding (she offered) or they could have gone back to Eric for care.

But D & B desperately wanted to do right by Lila's puppies. B went out that morning and purchased a gram scale, milk replacer, bottles, syringes, etc. D took the week off.

Within a day or so, all puppies were eating on their own and doing well. There was no doubt that B & D were doing an excellent job. We agreed to keep quiet about the incident - at least for the time being - because it was a very personal matter and we were all too shaken to put it up for discussion. There were more pressing matters to deal with - specifically the welfare of the puppies.

As a matter of fact, I was the one who made the comment “if it comes down to it we can always just tell people she died of complications due to heartworm or something else". It was simply no one else's business.

When Noel found out about the incident a few months later, Eric asked if she could contact me. She called me and I told her exactly what I just stated above. I assured her that everything was done right by the puppies and regarding Lila - I stated that NONE of us where there that night so we can't pass judgment.

I do know that B & D had the best intentions all along. They had intended to adopt this dog and keep her as their own.

As the facts have come to light in the report Noël posted, I believe that B did what he had to.

What happened was not some premeditated act on B's part. It happened in a split second. I have told Eric that it was a blessing that B was there and not out walking the other dog. I told Eric in an e-mail a few days ago to imagine that today is D's third reconstructive surgery to try and build her, for example, a left ear. And then to imagine all the lawsuits.

It appears that Lila did not suffer in her death. And B did not break any laws.


Now …. I have something to say against another person who has attacked D on this forum.

This woman complained over and over again on another forum, when she had aggression issues with her dog, but did not make the time to see a specialist.

From what I understand, she took her dog to general practice veterinarians and a dog trainer.

What she did NOT do was go to a board certified veterinarian who works exclusively on cases involving difficult animal behavioral problems - a qualified professional who could have assessed the situation and the dog.

Depending on the diagnosis, evaluation and prognosis, this woman could have been instructed in the proper behavioral correction techniques and her dog placed on behavior modifying medications. This particular area of veterinary specialty is readily available. The cost for the board certified veterinary behaviorist who I most often refer clients to is $150. It involves an eight page history form completed by the owner to be returned ASAP so the veterinarian is familiar with the case -- then the evaluation with the animal(s) and owners, which is several hours long is conducted, and followed up with phone consultations.

I can't tell how many pets have been saved under the direction of someone who knows what they are doing. If this woman had come to me as a client, I would have informed her that I was NOT qualified and have referred her to a veterinary behaviorist.

If she had brought the dog to me for euthanasia, it would have been difficult for me to perform knowing that the dog had not been properly evaluated - but I would have done it. A dangerous dog is a dangerous dog and not worth the risk.

This woman had a lot a time to try and do right by her dog - whose recent euthanasia date and time was publicly announced. She did not exhaust all possibilities. We will never know if that dog was fixable.

The bottom line is this: This woman had her dog for approximately a year, she raised the dog from a puppy. Yet B & D had a questionable dog for 4 days – a dog whose personality was just unfolding and B had literally a split second to prevent what could have been a REAL TRAGEDY.
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Postby Faith » March 26th, 2006, 7:47 am

hoagiesmomma wrote:
Sue wrote:What other dog did they PTS?



you'll need to take that up with them.

she told me about in pm while consoling me over hoagie's euthanasia...

which was why I am not attacking her on this the way some might.

she was supportive of me...and I think I am doing the same by only stating my opinion that they just shouldn't have dogs anymore.


NO DOG WAS PTS (other than Hoagie). Annabelle was taken back by Eric and the Karen (a trainer with a shelter) had to work with her for many, many months before she was eventually adopted. From what I understand, this was a difficult dog to place for karen. It was not a quick turnaround. Annabelle had issues. In an effort to help Eric, Brian and Doreen were kind enough to adopt another dog - Satin failed in another home a few weeks earlier. But Brian and Doreen have done a wonder job providing her with a loving home.
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Postby Faith » March 26th, 2006, 8:05 am

Hoyden wrote:
clarity wrote:
Would I have taken Lila and her babies in a heartbeat if Doreen called and asked for help? Certainly. Would I have been upset if Doreen called AC and said, "COME GET THIS DOG"?? Absolutely not.

eric


Eric - by your own admission you were in Washington DC that night - how could you have done anything?

The consulting vet is at least 4 hours away - how could she have made a difference?


Eric was in Washington, DC the following night after Lila was gone. I was already in contact with Doreen that entire day - ensuring that all puppies were being taken care of properly. All puppies were doing well. There was no need for Eric to cancel his business trip to DC.
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Postby Faith » March 26th, 2006, 8:19 am

Verderben wrote:
cheekymunkee wrote:What in the HELL is a puppy party?? Is that like a flea market?? A garage sale for puppies??? I have NEVER heard of anything so ridicouls in my life!!!


This is a puppy party one of the smaller ones I might add. It is where all the people that want to buy puppies come over at once and pick what pup they want to buy out of his basement :

Image


The puppy parties are an initial screening "party" so that potential adopters who have filled out applications can meet prospective puppies. NO puppy leaves with their new owner on that day - no matter how wonderful the people are. A follow-up home visit is done - And NO they are never 10 minutes long. They take a lot a time and on many times, people have been turned down after the home visit. These people seemed suitable at the puppy visit and on paper (prospective adoption form) but failed on home visit.

I am not saying what Eric does is perfect by any means but some things said here on this tread is not true.

I posted on this forum b/c my professionial reputation on this matter with Lila is being questioned.
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Postby Faith » March 26th, 2006, 8:36 am

And finally, if anyone has any response to what I have state here, please direct them to me on this uncensored forum. This is the reason why Noel posted her report here, so that Doreen and whoever else can respond to any comments (or attacks).
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Postby Purple » March 26th, 2006, 11:10 am

So, it has come to this:
SPBR's supporters rationalize even his most obvious and egregious errors, mendacities and bungling with straight faces and earnest demeanor, and the rest of us are left posturing for the truth from Eric, trying to make certain that when the dust settles, we are not indicted by silence.
You read about these failures, mistakes, lack of judgement and inconsistancies, and you keep asking, how? How could that which is so obviously wrong be so quietly accepted?
I am perplexed by their tolerance of obvious incompetence and brazen untruths. I wonder how they can turn blind eyes and disinterested ears to the mounting evidence.
Eric has indicted himself by silence. And when it is time to account for the actions of SPBR, some of us will be able to say we stood up, we called out, we were not silent.
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Postby mnp13 » March 26th, 2006, 11:21 am

I have to say I am veeeeery sceptical about those puppy parties. As I said in an earlier post, I know rescues who have taken months to get rid of a litter of eight. To hear that 2 or 3 litters worth of Pit Bull puppies are getting placed that quickly and easily makes me wonder what corners are being cut.
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Postby girlie » March 26th, 2006, 11:26 am

BigDogBuford wrote:
Favorite Kitty wrote:You crazy women are sitting here and have talked about a tub filled with frozen chicken necks for HOW many pages now? You don't find that a little absurd? If someone has 5 or 6 dogs and they were to thaw out the chicken necks so that all dogs may eat at the same time, how do YOU recommend they do it? You can't feed a dog such a prized treat one at a time and make the others wait. They would go insane! There would be issues. .


Actually yes, you can do this and I do it every day. It's called being responsible. You can crate and rotate to feed. You can use tie downs to feed, you can feed in crates. What's so hard?

Oh, but if he did things responsibly like that then he wouldn't be able to take picutres of pups mauled while being doubled up in crates.


Granted I was on a little vacation while the majority of this thread went down....but i can add that the handling of raw food that has been shown within this thread is clearly improper. I am a professional chef and have been through considerable schooling and training, and handling of raw meats is no different when it comes to animals. The "crazy women" comment seems to me to be a bit out of line, granted it is that individuals opinion, but to me it is a statement that was made and not back up with any knowledge of feeding/handling a raw diet. As for feeding dogs individually, of course that can be done...and in my eyes should be done.
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Postby Maryellen » March 26th, 2006, 12:13 pm

if same sex placements are not done, then someone explain how D & B were going to adopt lila with a female dog in the house. i thought eric stated he didnt do same sex placements? this whole thing is just truly disgusting. between the followers that make excuses, to eric himself .
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Postby Faith » March 26th, 2006, 12:49 pm

clarity wrote:haha -- i'm not trying to look like prince, doreen, but weren't you the one who quietly told people that she died of heartworm --

-- and that you'd appreciate if they kept that to themselves?

That's not dredging, but when you're over here on this forum degrading me personally, when I went to extreme measure to protect "your story" for the puppies' sake, that's sad --


I take responsibility for suggesting this to Doreen and for the very reason of what is going on now. Even with Noel's detailed report, people are still insisting that shooting Lila was wrong. IT IS AND WAS A PERONAL MATTER. It seems that no amount of evidence is going to convince some people.
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Postby cheekymunkee » March 26th, 2006, 3:04 pm

mnp13 wrote:I have to say I am veeeeery sceptical about those puppy parties. As I said in an earlier post, I know rescues who have taken months to get rid of a litter of eight. To hear that 2 or 3 litters worth of Pit Bull puppies are getting placed that quickly and easily makes me wonder what corners are being cut.


:goodStuff:

Why is it that it takes some rescues years to adopt out the amout of dogs he does in months? Oh yeah, they are PUPPIES! Anyone can adopt out puppies.........when you are cutting corners. And why does it seem that he has turned to strictly adopting out puppies? My question has gone unanswered......where are the moms? I have a few more that I would like for Eric to answer. What happens to the puppies that don't work out as they get older? Why was Danny adopted to a same sex home & where is that other dog now? Why are dog aggressive dogs being crated with puppies? Why are dog aggressive dogs being allowed access to puppies and other dogs? Why are perfectly good non-pregnant dogs being passed up in favor of pregnant dogs? Why is a resuce adding to the amount of pitbulls already deemed overpopulated?
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Postby panda » March 26th, 2006, 3:12 pm

We have some of our puppies for months and they grow into young adults before they get adopted. I foster many of our pit bull puppies at home and some have taken 3 months to place in the right home. The fastest one of my puppies has gone is 3 weeks.

http://www.petfinder.org/pet.cgi?action ... &preview=1

I have 2 in my home right now, as a matter of fact.
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Postby Violet » March 26th, 2006, 5:11 pm

I have the same issue, Christa..Pat is fostering Lena who is now 8 months old..Lavender JUST left. I generally avoid puppies because I hate having to watch them become dogs..without a forever home of their own.
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Postby Faith » March 27th, 2006, 6:48 pm

Ok. So I posted on this thread regarding the incident with Lila - not to start up the attacks on SPBR. If you want to do that, then start a new thread. Please, I don't want to be responsible.

When I found out that Noel was compiling a report about the incident, I said it was a waste of time. Lila was gone and why keep talking about it. Everyone had the best of intentions and it was a tragic event.

But the report helped me - it was thorough and unbiased. When I first found out about the incident, I did not know if the dog had been strangled, beaten or what. Now I feel better having the information.

So.....who still insists that Brian should have caught the dog midair and wrestled her barehanded into submission and back into a crate?

I believe Brian did what he had to do and I am grateful that no one got hurt. I think SPBR should be as well.
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Postby pittie_1 » March 27th, 2006, 7:08 pm

we cant please everyone, there is always going to be someone that objects to the final outcome. I say Brian is lucky he didnt come thru this with physical as well as the emotional scars. He did what he had too, there shouldnt be anyone pointing a finger. Im sure they feel awful.
I hope this doesnt deter Brian and Doreen from fostering, im sure they would be fine homes for the future dogs. Word of caution though... If you take a dog make sure it is on the word of someone that has actually been with the dog...not just posting them on a web page and telling everyone how cute and what a luv they are. oh and putting how much the cost of the dog and her puppies are being sold for. :wink:
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Postby Faith » March 27th, 2006, 7:33 pm

Thank you.

Now can we hear from the SPBR forum.

What are your opinions specifically regarding the incident with Lila?
Do you agree with SPBR or disagree?
Given the report that has been provided --- should Brian have wrestled this dog with his barehands - Yes or No?
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Postby panda » March 27th, 2006, 7:46 pm

So.....who still insists that Brian should have caught the dog midair and wrestled her barehanded into submission and back into a crate?

I believe Brian did what he had to do and I am grateful that no one got hurt. I think SPBR should be as well.


I agree, it sounds as though he and Doreen were lucky to not have been gravely hurt. From what I have read on this thread I have never thought Brian had any other option.
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Postby 04100824 » March 27th, 2006, 7:50 pm

I would have shot her too.

I was a member of spbr's forum before I came here, and am not going to go on some crusade about who is right and who is wrong or who said what blah blah blah. I'm here for information which I get both from here as well as spbr.

It simply amazes me that this debate has gone on for so long. I would not hesitate to shoot any animal that threatened me or my spouse under any circumstance. It wouldn't matter who told me what or who would feel bad about it. I'd freakin' shoot it and though I'd be upset, I'd move on.

I feel for D&B, really...
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Postby Faith » March 27th, 2006, 8:12 pm

04100824 wrote:I would have shot her too.

I was a member of spbr's forum before I came here, and am not going to go on some crusade about who is right and who is wrong or who said what blah blah blah. I'm here for information which I get both from here as well as spbr.

It simply amazes me that this debate has gone on for so long. I would not hesitate to shoot any animal that threatened me or my spouse under any circumstance. It wouldn't matter who told me what or who would feel bad about it. I'd freakin' shoot it and though I'd be upset, I'd move on.

I feel for D&B, really...


I feel bad for them as well. Imagine having to clean up after the incident. And now all this.
All I have to say is this - nice shot, Brian.

And believe me, I am a huge lover of animals. I volunteer at the shelter every week and do housecalls to people who have no money but take in stray dogs and cats.

Matt - would like to comment? I know you are a moderator on the SPBR forum and I realize you are Eric's friend as well. I'm sure you are aware of this thread. Do you agree with his opinion of the incident? (by the way, I am the one who castrated your dog, Yoda, and excised a chunk of skin for a biopsy at no charge).
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