Can this food make your dog jump higher than your head?

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Postby hughes » April 9th, 2008, 11:08 am

Probably not, I think Hughes is just a natural athlete, but...

This is the food that I've been feeding Baxter for the year that I've had him and Hughes was more than happy to switch over from the Eukanuba he was getting at the kennel before I adopted him...

http://www.holistickibbles.com

I think it tastes pretty good, for kibble. :oops: Did I say that?

HPN also has a good line of supplements and training treats that the big goofy hound seems to love. There is a brief bio of Dr. Jane Bicks, the product formulator, and some other info about the pet food industry that I'm sure most of you are already aware of.

Since I don't have the time, nor money to feed raw or barf, I did a lot of looking after the recalls, and I feel very comfortable with this comapany, and Dr. Jane is available to the public to answer questions about ingredients, etc.

Thanks fer lookin'

Brian, Baxter, and Hughes
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Postby msvette2u » April 9th, 2008, 11:26 am

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Postby hughes » April 9th, 2008, 11:44 am

Actually, that is a terrible site. Not only do they provide conflicting opinions about some ingredients in various reviews, they also are misinformed about certain "controversial" fillers, like beet pulp. The funny thing is, many have tried to contact them and ask for justification/clarification on some of the misinformation they are providing, but, as far as I am aware, they will never respond to legit criticism. :mad2:

I'll take the word of a Cornell educated DVM who has devoted her professional career to nutrtition and makes herself available to the public over a faceless website any day :)
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Postby hughes » April 9th, 2008, 11:50 am

For instance... AAFCO guidlines require eggs to be called "egg product" regardless of whether or not it is whole egg, but the "editors" of this site don't state that in their reviews.

I'll leave it at that. I'd pull up all of the reviews where they say an ingrdient is good in one review and bad in the other, but I really don't have time for their BS. They actually trash a lot of good foods, without having the knowledge to back it up.

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Postby msvette2u » April 9th, 2008, 12:30 pm

I'd use it as a guideline, not a bible ;)
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Postby hughes » April 9th, 2008, 12:57 pm

I guess that the main thing that bothers me is that they are giving such high marks to foods with excessively high protein levels. Save for extreme canine athletes, most dogs do not need to eat a food with 42% protein and I am worried what effects we will see when some of these dogs are fed such an unbalanced diet over their lifetime.

I do know, however, that if rabbit poop was nutritionally complete I could save a whole lot of money on dog food, lol.

Brian
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Postby amazincc » April 9th, 2008, 12:59 pm

hughes wrote:
I do know, however, that if rabbit poop was nutritionally complete I could save a whole lot of money on dog food, lol.

Brian


Me too... lol
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Postby cheekymunkee » April 9th, 2008, 1:10 pm

That is the first food that I have seen that uses catfish in their foods. My dogs LOVE catfish!
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Postby mnp13 » April 9th, 2008, 2:18 pm

hughes wrote:I'll take the word of a Cornell educated DVM who has devoted her professional career to nutrtition and makes herself available to the public over a faceless website any day :)

The office I go to has two Cornell vets, one thinks raw is going to kill my dogs, the other thinks it's fine as long as they get occasional veggies and we make sure they get enough bone so they get sufficient calcium. The Cornell vet my mom is friends will was horrified when I said I feed raw and didn't understand why I didn't just stick with high grade kibbles like Iams, Science Diet or Eukanuba. The Cornell vet I used to skate with is a nationally known reproductive expert and thinks I'm nuts to feed raw, but if the dogs are healthy and are getting complete workups at least once a year then it's fine. A degree is a good place to start, but it's not the be-all-end-all.

I guess that the main thing that bothers me is that they are giving such high marks to foods with excessively high protein levels. Save for extreme canine athletes, most dogs do not need to eat a food with 42% protein and I am worried what effects we will see when some of these dogs are fed such an unbalanced diet over their lifetime.

There is little evidence that high protein will do any harm either. I have a very low energy dog and two dogs that never stop moving - all three do fine on raw which is pretty much all protein. When they are getting chicken they get about 100 grams of protein per meal.

For instance... AAFCO guidlines require eggs to be called "egg product" regardless of whether or not it is whole egg, but the "editors" of this site don't state that in their reviews.

Many foods list eggs as "whole eggs" not "egg product"

I'm not saying that this food is bad, it actually looks very good, but there are a lot of other things to consider.
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Postby katiek0417 » April 9th, 2008, 4:11 pm

All of my dogs are on high protein diets. This includes my "athletes" (with the exception of Cy who is on raw, and actually has the lowest protein to fat ratio, and the lowest protein overall) and non-athletes (like Sacha and Rocky). They all look good, have energy, and are healthy.

And, as far as Cornell vet school goes. It's an EXCELLENT school...however, I tend to look more at the person as a whole, as opposed to the school on their degree. Because, trust me, I've spoken to people with the same degree as I have from schools like Harvard, Penn, etc (I got my degree from Catholic U) and they have less knowledge about the brain and psychology than my dogs...
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Postby hughes » April 9th, 2008, 11:09 pm

Michelle - There are foods that list whole egg, this does not mean they are following AAFCO guidelines. Whether or not this rule is enforced is another story, Dr. Jane chooses to stay within their guidlines as far as labeling goes, just to avoid any problems should they decise to start calling companies on the carpet.

One of the main reasons that I like the Life's Abundance is the freshness factor. Since I have to feed kibble at this time, I like the direct sales model and knowing that my new bag has not been sitting around in a warehouse, etc. One of the reasons that Dr. Bicks left Iam's when they were bought by P&G is that she actually saw bags of food being sprayed with insecticide in a warehouse with roach problems.

I'll look into her research on the high protein levels and what works she cites for sources. She mentioned it on a conference call, but I never wrote anything down...terrible about taking notes.
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Postby mnp13 » April 10th, 2008, 11:40 am

cool, I would be very interested in seeing those studies. There are a number of threads in the Health section about kibble, so post there when you have a chance!
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Postby Magnolia618 » April 10th, 2008, 4:11 pm

My vet went to Cornell and practices eastern medicine and feeds his own dog raw! :mrgreen:
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Postby Magnolia618 » April 10th, 2008, 4:21 pm

and why the heck do they have brown rice AND "potato product"? :crazy2:
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Postby hughes » April 10th, 2008, 6:11 pm

Magnolia618 wrote:and why the heck do they have brown rice AND "potato product"? :crazy2:


You can email Dr. Bicks herself if you like. I'm sure that she would love to discuss this with another DVM who has spent 20 years, give or take, studying nutrition :wink:

And again, AAFCO guidlines mandate that it be called "potato product" the same as with eggs. Are there companies out there that don't follow the guidlines? Sure there are, and they probably will continue to do so untill they are called out on it.

Not sure where the inpression came from that I was speaking badly of raw diets. This thread was about kibble and then the dogfoodanalysis website, that is very inconsistant in their reviews and do not put a name or any credentials behind the information they provide. If I had the time and money, I would probably feed raw myself, but it would be more along the lines of the Volhard diet, which has a great track record, and not just feed them a hodgepodge of stuff, with whatever supplements I felt like. Raw, when done properly, is great. When it isn't done properly, not so much.
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Postby Marinepits » April 10th, 2008, 7:05 pm

hughes wrote: If I had the time and money, I would probably feed raw myself, but it would be more along the lines of the Volhard diet, which has a great track record,.....


What is this of which you speak? :?
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Postby hughes » April 10th, 2008, 7:31 pm

Marinepits wrote:
hughes wrote: If I had the time and money, I would probably feed raw myself, but it would be more along the lines of the Volhard diet, which has a great track record,.....


What is this of which you speak? :?


http://www.volhard.com/

The approach they take is very holistic and the Volhards and the people that follow their nutritional approach seem to be doing very well with their canine companions. Some of the discussion on their list group gets a little too deep for what I have time for(meridians, seasons, etc) between work and studies, but they are definitely 100% immersed in what they do and stand by their approach.

It looks like they also have a very postive based training approach, but I haven't had a chance to look at it too much.
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Postby Marinepits » April 10th, 2008, 8:33 pm

Thanks, I'll check it out! :wave2:
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Postby chewbecca » April 27th, 2008, 9:27 pm

From what I've been told, by those who study canine nutrition, is that it's not the high protein so much as it's the high ash content that usually comes with the high protein diets, that are bad for dogs. Also, the lack of moisture in the food.

How can this be solved?
Simply by adding water. That is all.
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Postby hughes » April 29th, 2008, 1:55 am

chewbecca wrote:From what I've been told, by those who study canine nutrition, is that it's not the high protein so much as it's the high ash content that usually comes with the high protein diets, that are bad for dogs. Also, the lack of moisture in the food.

How can this be solved?
Simply by adding water. That is all.


Yes, high ash content is not good, but simply adding water will not change that ratio, or lessen the amount that the dog gets. Dr. Bicks has studied canine nutrition for the last 20 years and is available to answer any questions you may have and can address it far better than I can. Do these you speak of who study canine nutrition have a website or any forum to reach them for clarification of this. I'm also curious as to what school their PhD. is from, to better get an idea of what their general philosophy will be, since different programs tend to focus on different areas.
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