Clearing the air.

This is where to talk about Pit Bulls!

Postby Chris Fraize » March 24th, 2006, 12:47 am

Hello all,

In a few different posts on this board I have been accused of being a disreputable breeder and irresponsible trainer while being selfish and arrogant about the breed.

Personal attacks will always be occurring on message boards. People are entitled to their opinions. No sweat! These people with deep-rooted viewpoints in subjects they don’t understand or believe can only be achieved by their methods are almost impossible to reason with. So don’t even try. If by some stroke of luck they come around and want to have a friendly open debate about the facts without getting personal, GREAT!

I will say this; I don’t train my dogs for anyone else but me. I don’t breed my dogs to the UKC, AKC or ADBA standards. I don’t breed dogs to make a living. I am a smart thoughtful person that cares deeply about the breed and it’s fate. I breed dogs for myself and breed them to the standards I wish to see. I do health tests on my dogs to get the information I need and make the breeding (I breed rarely) I want to get the dog/pup I want for my needs. You breed your way and I will breed mine. Let’s help each other by exchanging information and ideas. Let’s not point fingers and ostracize others to make ourselves look better and feel better about what we do.

This breed is in trouble. I have and will continue to do as much as I can to help turn that around. However, painting me as an irresponsible breeder, trainer or handler is just not fitting. We as a community have bigger problems out there that need intelligent consideration. Anyone that knows me, really knows me knows how I breed, train and represent my dogs. Those that don’t know me or have never met me are merely guessing.

Thanks to everyone that has had kind words about our dogs, training and videos.

Safe training,
Chris Fraize
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Postby chance's mom » March 24th, 2006, 1:17 am

thank you chris, and thanks for sharing, and i do hope you continue to share. you are right, people dont need to be nasty, we should put our differences aside and work together to save the breed we ALL love and want to protect. to anyone on here, i am glad EVERYONE is here, becuase i believe we each learn something and make a difference everytime you visit becuase you LEARN something new! that will always be crutial to this breed, learning, as they say, "knowledge is power", but i would add to that, and supporting each other is crucial. thanks again chris, i enjoy seeing what you do because i believe it shows a loyal, intellegent, well trainable breed. you help get us in the good light by training and showing your dogs, and also by doing things such as taking your dog to a school to help the firefighters teach kids what to do in the case of a fire (the crawl he tought his dog so the dog could show the kids). so glad to have you on this forum, look forward to more great learning experiences.
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Postby dogcrazyjen » March 24th, 2006, 8:56 am

:afro:

You Da Man, Chris, You Da Man.

Well said.
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Postby ccc2006 » March 24th, 2006, 10:35 am

Chris Fraize wrote: Let’s help each other by exchanging information and ideas. Let’s not point fingers and ostracize others to make ourselves look better and feel better about what we do.

This breed is in trouble. I have and will continue to do as much as I can to help turn that around. However, painting me as an irresponsible breeder, trainer or handler is just not fitting. We as a community have bigger problems out there that need intelligent consideration.

Great post! :) We sure do have bigger problems to address with BSL knocking on our doors all the time. Hopefully with the input of everyone here, we can find a way to make a difference.

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Postby bustersmama » March 24th, 2006, 11:02 am

Well I really dont know much about the conflict you have been experiencing or the personal attacks, BUT I am glad to hear that you are going to stick it out, because I agreee we can learn SOMETHING from everyone!

On a side note, I do not agree with breeding to no standards, I dont think that could sound any worse. BUT- it sounds like you have heard all the reasons "why not", so why dont you give us the reasons "why" you do it? If your answer is going to be something along the lines "Cause I want to" please dont worry about repsonding. What do you do for health testing?

I promise to remain civli, on my honor! :)
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Postby bustersmama » March 24th, 2006, 11:08 am

Dang you no edit button!

I wanted to add, if there is a thread you want to direct me too instead of retyping anything - please do.

Anxiously Awaiting Your Response,

Sarah
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Postby mnp13 » March 24th, 2006, 12:18 pm

I will chime in on this as the owner of one of his dogs.

Chris does not breed to a standard, however his dogs still win in the show ring (so they would clearly seem to fit the standards). His dogs win in weight pull (indicating physical health). I took Riggs home having only had him on leash one single time, I saw almost no evidence of stress from this at all. Outside of two times having diahrreah there was nothing. We have had no regression either, no accidents in the house no change in his attitude or demeanor. I think that shows a solid temperament.

Is Chris perfict? No. He has never said that he is. It is other people who have claimed that he thinks that he is. Trust me, he doesn't. Sure, I've only met him once (we logged plenty of 'face time' hours in those four days) but I can't count the hours on the phone and the number of emails we have exchanged. Perfict? No. Hard working and more than willing to share his knowledge? Yes, absolutely.

Sure, there were things I didn't agree with when I watched him train. I asked questions, he explained himself. No biggie. I have yet to see him unwilling to do the same for anyone here.

All that said. I am aware that a number of people have contacted him for help/adivce. NO, he has not "complained" about that. NOT AT ALL. However, I would encourage people to post questions to him on the board. I can guarentee you that if you have a question about something then plenty of others are wondering about the same thing. April, Megan and Nelson are also very experienced and hopefully we can draw them out as well!
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Postby bustersmama » March 24th, 2006, 12:26 pm

If you have an answer Michelle, I would love to hear it about the "to his standard" statement. You said conformation wise they would/have won in the ring - what other standars are we talking about?

Or I can wait for Chris to answer, either way.
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Postby odnarb » March 24th, 2006, 12:34 pm

Chris Fraize wrote:I do health tests on my dogs to get the information I need and make the breeding (I breed rarely) I want to get the dog/pup I want for my needs. You breed your way and I will breed mine. Let’s help each other by exchanging information and ideas. Let’s not point fingers and ostracize others to make ourselves look better and feel better about what we do.



I am curious then, if you DO health test, why isn't there a single Punchline dog in the OFA database?


This breed is in trouble. I have and will continue to do as much as I can to help turn that around. However, painting me as an irresponsible breeder, trainer or handler is just not fitting. We as a community have bigger problems out there that need intelligent consideration. Anyone that knows me, really knows me knows how I breed, train and represent my dogs. Those that don’t know me or have never met me are merely guessing.



I hear this excuse a lot. There is BSL, bigger things to worry about! Joe Breeder up the road is a MUCH worse breeder than me! As though the fact that Mugglesons exists, that excuses less than ideal breeding practices.

This board has a breeder's code of ethics posted. Why is it OK for some to follow it, and not others?

And, thanks to everyone in this thread for proving my point.
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Postby mnp13 » March 24th, 2006, 12:35 pm

bustersmama wrote:If you have an answer Michelle, I would love to hear it about the "to his standard" statement. You said conformation wise they would/have won in the ring - what other standars are we talking about?


Riggs has a litter sister and brother who have finished in AKC. Riggs is already major pointed in UKC and I hope to finish him. Riggs was shown with no show training and with the normal bumps a bruises of kennel life. He still won, in more than one show under different judges.

Chris says he doesn't breed to standard, but his dogs end up coming out looking like they are supposed to.

I am only talking about my experience with my dog, I am not speaking for Chris. I know Chris breeds (his last litter was three years ago) to create working dogs. He looks for function and temperament, pretty doesn't figure in, but it seems to happen.
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Postby bustersmama » March 24th, 2006, 12:44 pm

mnp13 wrote:
Riggs has a litter sister and brother who have finished in AKC. Riggs is already major pointed in UKC and I hope to finish him. Riggs was shown with no show training and with the normal bumps a bruises of kennel life. He still won, in more than one show under different judges.

Chris says he doesn't breed to standard, but his dogs end up coming out looking like they are supposed to.

I am only talking about my experience with my dog, I am not speaking for Chris. I know Chris breeds (his last litter was three years ago) to create working dogs. He looks for function and temperament, pretty doesn't figure in, but it seems to happen.


I still dont see what is "out"' of standard that would make him mention that he breeds to "his" standard. Unless it was just a general, no meaning statement?

Thanks for taking the time to answer Michelle.

This board has a breeder's code of ethics posted. Why is it OK for some to follow it, and not others?


Good point.
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Postby DemoDick » March 24th, 2006, 1:06 pm

I'm sure Chris will have a response, but I feelt he need to chime in.

I am curious then, if you DO health test, why isn't there a single Punchline dog in the OFA database?


OFA isn't the only "health test" out there, and it certainly isn't the best indicator of structural soundness. Grant's sire and dam are OFA'd, right? Yet, his hocks are slipping.

Paperwork saying that the dog has good structure means nothing when the structure itself fails.

Just my opinion.

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Postby Jenn » March 24th, 2006, 1:20 pm

odnarb wrote:This board has a breeder's code of ethics posted. Why is it OK for some to follow it, and not others?

And, thanks to everyone in this thread for proving my point.


Not to stick my nose in here, but the following preceeds the code of ethics posted...
Pit Bull Talk is adopting this for our forum as a way of endorsing responsible breeders. We will only endsorse you if you meet the criteria below.

If you are a breeder and do not abide by the COE you are still welcome here but are not permitted to identify yourself as a breeder or to post a link to your web page.


I've not seen where Chris or anyone alike has specifically identified themselves as a breeder to go against what the board states is "acceptable". Chris's video's aren't about puppy litters or breeding? :|
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Postby mnp13 » March 24th, 2006, 1:33 pm

I have just spoken to Charles about this.

Chris is not and has not advertised Pit Bulls on this site. The website link that is on his profile is for his training business. He has broken no rules on the forum. The BOE applies in theory to all breeders. It is an ideal. the BOE does not affect anyone's membership here.

Chris didn't bring up breeding, I did when I said that he bred Riggs.

If ANY member chose to breed a litter they would not be allowed to post or advertise those puppies here. No kennel sites are allowed unless the kennel meets most of the COE (no one is perfict) the staff discusses it and we make a decision together.

If the worst back yard, giant mastiff-bull bull breeder in the world joined this board they would be welcomed. They also would not be able to advertise their kennel or their litters here. They would be given the opportunity to defend/justify/whatever their breeding practices, and they would have to be open to constructive criticism and questions.

There is not a double standard here. Chris did not join as a breeder and that never came up until others (I) brought it up.

I still dont see what is "out"' of standard that would make him mention that he breeds to "his" standard. Unless it was just a general, no meaning statement?


In my opinion, this means that form takes a back seat to function without exception. It is not a 'no meaning' statement, it is a value statement relating to not focusing on makeing the dogs look like the current fad of the dogs in the show ring. The AKC seems to like a smoother look to the AmStaff (all depends on the judging), the ADBA wants lean, ripped dogs that are finer boned (all depends on the judging), the UKC seems to lean towards the middle of the two (all depends on the judging)

It is fact that the dogs that win the huge, high profile shows are the look that breeders start to shift towards. Look at the English Bulldog. Big heads win? Let's make them bigger! Underbites win? Let's make them more deeper! Huge shoulders and little hips win? Let's make them more exaggurated! All to the detriment of the breed.

There is a hideous picture of a GSD in the George Alston book I just bought. The dog just won best in show and is standing up on the handler with his paws on the handlers shoulders. The dog's hocks are completely on the ground. There is no 'function' in a dog that stands like that, and it just won a major show!

By not breeding to follow the fad of the moment - with ANY breed - you help to preserve the working qualities. In many cases breeding towards the look of the dog has ruined a breeds functional capability.
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Postby SisMorphine » March 24th, 2006, 1:41 pm

mnp13 wrote:In my opinion, this means that form takes a back seat to function without exception.

That's how I was reading it.

AKC Greyhounds - form over function. Can they run? Sure. I'm sure they'd have a grand ol' time bounding around with a lab in a field. But more importantly they fit the AKC standards to a T
NGA Greyhounds - function over form. Do they look good? Sure they do, but they also each look very different ranging from tiny pinheads to huge BT-esque roman noses. But throw them out in a field and they will blow the pants off of any AKC Grey you can find . . . and any other dog for that matter.

Many people want dogs for their function. I have always heard that you breed to better the breed and for no other reason. Some choose to better a breed through looks, others through their ability to work. It all depends on what you want to do with the dog as to which standards are more important to you.
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Postby bustersmama » March 24th, 2006, 1:43 pm

In my opinion, this means that form takes a back seat to function without exception.
If Chris concurs with this, then this answers my question.


It is not a 'no meaning' statement, it is a value statement relating to not focusing on makeing the dogs look like the current fad of the dogs in the show ring. The AKC seems to like a smoother look to the AmStaff (all depends on the judging), the ADBA wants lean, ripped dogs that are finer boned (all depends on the judging), the UKC seems to lean towards the middle of the two (all depends on the judging)


I think you read into that statement to much. I didnt mean "no meaning" with such a deep underlying thought. I simply meant he just said it.
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Postby mnp13 » March 24th, 2006, 1:58 pm

bustersmama wrote:
It is not a 'no meaning' statement, it is a value statement relating to not focusing on makeing the dogs look like the current fad of the dogs in the show ring. The AKC seems to like a smoother look to the AmStaff (all depends on the judging), the ADBA wants lean, ripped dogs that are finer boned (all depends on the judging), the UKC seems to lean towards the middle of the two (all depends on the judging)


I think you read into that statement to much. I didnt mean "no meaning" with such a deep underlying thought. I simply meant he just said it.


Well, you should have said what you meant then, I can't read your mind woman! :rolleyes2:

:wink:
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Postby Romanwild » March 24th, 2006, 2:57 pm

Chris was not the one to bring up the fact that he has bred pit bulls. His link does not have anything to do either the fact that he has bred pit bulls. His link does not link to his breeding site. No problem there.

A couple of members have called him on the fact that he does not register his ofa/penn hipp score. That' his decision.

Frankly, if someone goes to the expense of x-raying their breeding stock what's another $35 (for hip and elbow combined) to have it listed? The follow ups are cheaper, $30. http://www.offa.org/fees.html I would urge Chris to pay the fees and list the score. Peronally I would not buy from any breeder that didn't follow through. If I am paying for something then I want the proof. It's not a trust issue it' a business issue with me. I would urge Chris to add his results to the databases.Not to appease his critics but rather to help the breed. (Not that he hasn't helped the breed!!!)

The fact that we are disscuing this is not a violation of our COE rule.
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Postby mydawgs » March 24th, 2006, 5:57 pm

Anyone who has doubts about Chris or the work he is doing for our breeds do this....before more unfounded comments are made, get in your car or on a plane and GO TO MAINE. Take a look for your selves, if this does not put an end to your concerns then I would have concerns about your objectivity. Seeing is believing and looking someone in the eye is a far cry from trying to make judgements over the internet. Chris LIVES his philosophy and I will reiterate he is an asset our breed is in desparate need of....so don't knock it till ya seen it.
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Postby odnarb » March 25th, 2006, 12:10 am

Romanwild wrote:Chris was not the one to bring up the fact that he has bred pit bulls. His link does not have anything to do either the fact that he has bred pit bulls. His link does not link to his breeding site. No problem there.



Not Pit Bulls. But, I find the breeding of non-health tested Malinois and Dutchies just as offensive.


Romanwild wrote:A couple of members have called him on the fact that he does not register his ofa/penn hipp score. That' his decision.



If you PennHip, it goes into the database, no way around that. Curious, who IS reading the films? A privately contracted radiologist? GPs are not qualified to make a definative diagnosis in humans or animals. That is why there are specialists.


DemoDick wrote:OFA isn't the only "health test" out there, and it certainly isn't the best indicator of structural soundness. Grant's sire and dam are OFA'd, right? Yet, his hocks are slipping.

Paperwork saying that the dog has good structure means nothing when the structure itself fails.



You are right. However, there is no actual OFA certification for subluxation of the hocks. Even if there were, it's silly to not do it because it isn't 100%. It's called stacking the deck in your favor. With today's technology, it's blatantly irresponsible to NOT take advantage of today's science.

Clear results are also not a green light to breed. Health testing is a tool to help you evaluate things that the naked eye cannot. I've seen dysplasic dogs act like nothing is wrong, and I've seen dogs rated "Fair" that are painful.

Riggs has a littermate with two separate heart defects. I'd be curious as to what a cardiologist may have found had they gone over the sire and dam of that litter.
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