New Kennel in the Making?????

This is where to talk about Pit Bulls!

Postby concreterose » March 22nd, 2006, 3:21 pm

cheekymunkee wrote:
bahamutt99 wrote:DJ has some good things to say, but tends to cloud things up with copious personal blah blah. (Don't mind me. I woke up quite sick this morning, and I want to gnaw my own head off.) I remember reading the Working Pit Bull as my first APBT book. Good information, and a good read for folks who don't think these dogs can do anything but fight, but it also left my impressionable young mind filled with distaste for things I knew nothing about, like the ADBA, undershot dogs, etc.

I don't know. I find it sucky how she can reverse herself and flip-flop and all that jazz. I guess we all have the right to changing opinions, but eee ow my head hurts. I think I'll just sit back and watch this one play out.


I hope you feel better Lindsay. I have had a cold for about 2 weeks now & I am ready to die. Personally, I like this site MUCH better. While I do not agree with everything on it, it is MUCH better than most. I'll give this site out before I will hers.

http://www.apbtconformation.com/


I agree. It has information from more than one source, which makes it a bit more comprehensive and unbiased than DJ's site. Instead of one person claiming to be an expert, they invite contributors, which is always a good thing.
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Postby aurora » March 22nd, 2006, 6:26 pm

Oh my god, could she be any worse!? It's just one thing after the other with this lady. I like how her site says she supports rescue, but she posted on another board how rescue was hopeless. That certainly sounds supportive!!!
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Postby odnarb » March 22nd, 2006, 6:27 pm

pLaurent wrote:Others who byb, or buy from bybers, are scum, but when she does it, it's for altruistic reasons we cannot possibly comprehend and always for a Higher Goal.



But then, some others do it and ARE held up as having a higher goal. Why are some excused, and some blasted into next week? I can think of a few breeders that are on the short list of many as the best of the best, who have bred to and/or purchased dogs from breeders that don't health test and/or title.

Some of these old school lines have a lot to offer. Working ability and structure are seriously suffering in the breed right now. Sometimes you need to bite the bullet and do something like that for the betterment of the breed. It reminds me of the situation with the bush dogs from the Congo that were recently introduced back into the Basenji.

The rescue dogs in our part of the country are seriously lacking. It's tough to find one with the qualities that she is looking for. Heck, a good bombproof bulldog temperament is getting tough to come by anymore. There have been three OTCH AmStafs in the history of the breed. Two of them were owned by somebody here in the PNW as well, and both were ILPed rescue dogs. And now, even she says that the quality in the shelter dogs is going down. Perhaps we just have a pocket of crappy dogs in our part of the world, or perhaps there are a lot of people who THINK they have lots of potential working dogs, but don't really know what they should be looking for.

I don't see eye to eye with Diane on all subjects, maybe not even most. But honestly, a litter out of health tested and working titled Sorrell dogs is way less offensive to me than 99.9% of the APBTs & AmStafs being bred out there today. If Havoc turns out to be as nice of a dog in drive and temperament as Dirk, it has my attention. If I could get a dog that works like Dirk, and looks like Havoc, I will have reached the pinacle of my ideal Pit Bull, and I'll be able to die a happy woman.

But, whatever. Life will go on. And I guarantee, none of these potential pups are going to die alone in a shelter, or be the spark for BSL. Diane will health test and title those dogs before she breeds them. There are many breeders that are much worse. Heck, there is somebody that posts on these boards that is constantly being praised, yet there isn't a single dog with their kennel name listed in the OFA database.

Diane is somebody that many Pit Bull people love to hate. If she said that her favorite color was blue, we would have people screeching about the evils of blue. Yes, she is hypocritical. But, we excuse it from a lot of breeders and rescuers that are held up as the picture of responsible. I just think that is kinda odd, myself.

Is it a breeder vs rescue thing? I guess I just don't get it. Why ARE some people above persecution? :|
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Postby mnp13 » March 22nd, 2006, 7:07 pm

odnarb wrote:
pLaurent wrote:Others who byb, or buy from bybers, are scum, but when she does it, it's for altruistic reasons we cannot possibly comprehend and always for a Higher Goal.



But then, some others do it and ARE held up as having a higher goal. Why are some excused, and some blasted into next week? I can think of a few breeders that are on the short list of many as the best of the best, who have bred to and/or purchased dogs from breeders that don't health test and/or title.


Name the breeders or don't bring them up. If you think they are that disreputable and that people don't know about it, then out them. If you do nothing to stop their practices (at least by identifying them with proof to back up your claims) then you can't have that much of a problem with what they are doing.

odnarb wrote:Some of these old school lines have a lot to offer. Working ability and structure are seriously suffering in the breed right now. Sometimes you need to bite the bullet and do something like that for the betterment of the breed. It reminds me of the situation with the bush dogs from the Congo that were recently introduced back into the Basenji.


You're right, sometimes you have to do that. However, when you have been preaching to the world for years about the evils of un-health tested dogs, that no one (without exception) should be breeding right now and as recently as last year TRASHED the people who she got the puppy from it's a tough pill to swallow.

odnarb wrote:The rescue dogs in our part of the country are seriously lacking. It's tough to find one with the qualities that she is looking for.


Bull. They are there, you just have to LOOK.... oh, and not miss meet up after meet up after meet up with people who have good prospects. Connor fits the bill 100%, he pretty much taught himself to do area serches and is very good at them. He's insanly driven and works until he's literally falling over. He came from a dumpster.

odnarb wrote:Heck, a good bombproof bulldog temperament is getting tough to come by anymore.


bull again. I have one. Chris has a few. Demo has one. I know of three or four others.

odnarb wrote:I don't see eye to eye with Diane on all subjects, maybe not even most. But honestly, a litter out of health tested and working titled Sorrell dogs is way less offensive to me than 99.9% of the APBTs & AmStafs being bred out there today. If Havoc turns out to be as nice of a dog in drive and temperament as Dirk, it has my attention. If I could get a dog that works like Dirk, and looks like Havoc, I will have reached the pinacle of my ideal Pit Bull, and I'll be able to die a happy woman.


I seem to recall Diane posting that Dirk has bad conformation. Is she planning to hard cull that litter to get rid of the ones who are put together wrong? I hope so.

odnarb wrote:There are many breeders that are much worse. Heck, there is somebody that posts on these boards that is constantly being praised, yet there isn't a single dog with their kennel name listed in the OFA database.


Again, name them or stop bringing them up.

odnarb wrote:Diane is somebody that many Pit Bull people love to hate. If she said that her favorite color was blue, we would have people screeching about the evils of blue. Yes, she is hypocritical. But, we excuse it from a lot of breeders and rescuers that are held up as the picture of responsible. I just think that is kinda odd, myself.


Yes, she is hypocritical. She is also a 'Pit Bull Expert' and has waved her titles under my nose plenty of times. She rips people a new one for using compulsion training, but there is more than one picture of her dogs wearing prong collars. She rips people a new one for keeping their dogs indoors or in crates, but hers live full time in kennels. She makes fun of people who say their dogs have SA, because hers don't... but how can a dog have SA when they live in kennels full time? She posts about her dogs 'getting the stuffing ripped out of them' as if it is nothing to be alarmed about. She filppantly posted about using a stun baton to break up dog fights (how positive is that?) completely neglecting to follow up with that advice and peole ran out to get them. Those people then proudly posted about how they use them for keeping their dogs in line. Odd, considering how she went after me for using an e-collar.

When you are as public about your opinions as Diane is, you are held to that level and expected to practice what you preach.

We are all hypocrites sometimes. It's part of human nature. However most of us don't show off about being that way.

She posted about Havok on PBF to flaunt her purchase to everyone. "Look what I did and I dare you to criticize me for it." Now she is breeding???? What respect I had for her is completely 100% gone.
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Postby pLaurent » March 22nd, 2006, 7:10 pm

But then, some others do it and ARE held up as having a higher goal. Why are some excused, and some blasted into next week?


I've been wondering the same thing a lot lately, and NOT just about breeding.

Some people are excused for many things and others are nearly tarred and feathered for identical actions or mistakes.

I still say it's the "Emperor's New Clothes" syndrome. If you're the emperor, you can't possibly be naked!
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Postby pLaurent » March 22nd, 2006, 7:19 pm

Edit button seems to be gone. Sorry.

She rips people a new one for using compulsion training, but there is more than one picture of her dogs wearing prong collars


Oh my yes! I"m one the people who got a stern talking to about how inhumane I am to use a simple collar correction on my Chloe. I was a little puzzled, since the lecture came from someone who had no hesitation to kill her own irresponsibly bred mutt puppies and finds it amusing when dogs rip each other up over a plate of nachos left lying around.

Let some newbie post about these types of situations and resulting injuries or deaths, and see how THEY get ripped a new one.
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Postby cheekymunkee » March 22nd, 2006, 7:39 pm

odnarb wrote:
pLaurent wrote:Others who byb, or buy from bybers, are scum, but when she does it, it's for altruistic reasons we cannot possibly comprehend and always for a Higher Goal.



But then, some others do it and ARE held up as having a higher goal. Why are some excused, and some blasted into next week? I can think of a few breeders that are on the short list of many as the best of the best, who have bred to and/or purchased dogs from breeders that don't health test and/or title.

Some of these old school lines have a lot to offer. Working ability and structure are seriously suffering in the breed right now. Sometimes you need to bite the bullet and do something like that for the betterment of the breed. It reminds me of the situation with the bush dogs from the Congo that were recently introduced back into the Basenji.

The rescue dogs in our part of the country are seriously lacking. It's tough to find one with the qualities that she is looking for. Heck, a good bombproof bulldog temperament is getting tough to come by anymore. There have been three OTCH AmStafs in the history of the breed. Two of them were owned by somebody here in the PNW as well, and both were ILPed rescue dogs. And now, even she says that the quality in the shelter dogs is going down. Perhaps we just have a pocket of crappy dogs in our part of the world, or perhaps there are a lot of people who THINK they have lots of potential working dogs, but don't really know what they should be looking for.

I don't see eye to eye with Diane on all subjects, maybe not even most. But honestly, a litter out of health tested and working titled Sorrell dogs is way less offensive to me than 99.9% of the APBTs & AmStafs being bred out there today. If Havoc turns out to be as nice of a dog in drive and temperament as Dirk, it has my attention. If I could get a dog that works like Dirk, and looks like Havoc, I will have reached the pinacle of my ideal Pit Bull, and I'll be able to die a happy woman.

But, whatever. Life will go on. And I guarantee, none of these potential pups are going to die alone in a shelter, or be the spark for BSL. Diane will health test and title those dogs before she breeds them. There are many breeders that are much worse. Heck, there is somebody that posts on these boards that is constantly being praised, yet there isn't a single dog with their kennel name listed in the OFA database.

Diane is somebody that many Pit Bull people love to hate. If she said that her favorite color was blue, we would have people screeching about the evils of blue. Yes, she is hypocritical. But, we excuse it from a lot of breeders and rescuers that are held up as the picture of responsible. I just think that is kinda odd, myself.

Is it a breeder vs rescue thing? I guess I just don't get it. Why ARE some people above persecution? :|


Oh please. :rolleyes2: STOP making excuses for her. If it were ANY one else you'd be all over them like flies on shit. She couldn't find bomb-proof dogs because she isn't looking for them. I see them every damn day. Look at most of the dogs that came out of Lousiana. Bad Rap says they are some of the best tempered dogs they have ever seen. Guess what?? We got em here too. I have one draped across the end of my bed. Justice, I would not call bomb-proof, she is a bit shy but she warms up very quickly & ends up in your lap. I don't know what kind of pit bulls you guys have up north but if you want to see some REAL bull dogs, come down south. I've seen some squirrley dogs but they way YOU put it, every dog you see is. I don't know what ya'll have or where you are getting them but maybe you are looking in the wrong place.
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Postby Romanwild » March 22nd, 2006, 8:14 pm

I don't see eye to eye with Diane on all subjects, maybe not even most. But honestly, a litter out of health tested and working titled Sorrell dogs is way less offensive to me than 99.9% of the APBTs & AmStafs being bred out there today.


I wouldn't assume that she will health test. :rolleyes2:
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Postby concreterose » March 22nd, 2006, 9:37 pm

Romanwild wrote:
I don't see eye to eye with Diane on all subjects, maybe not even most. But honestly, a litter out of health tested and working titled Sorrell dogs is way less offensive to me than 99.9% of the APBTs & AmStafs being bred out there today.


I wouldn't assume that she will health test. :rolleyes2:


Dirk has been tested. All the more reason she has to 'responsibly' breed him.
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Postby Maryellen » March 22nd, 2006, 9:48 pm

she got on my butt for crating 2 of my dogs while we worked... she said i should kennel them outside or tether them... no way would i put 2 of my dogs in harms way of poisons or bears... and both could eat their way out of a tether, and no way would i put a chain around their necks.. she blasted me for crating, yet her dogs are crated more.. and alot of them live outside in kennels.. she is a hypocrite.. there are plenty of great dogs here in the northeast, you just have to find them. they are there in shelters dying every day out here.. if the backyard breeders would stop breeding and the people would stop buying from them then the crappy dogs would go away...
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Postby odnarb » March 22nd, 2006, 10:01 pm

mnp13 wrote:Name the breeders or don't bring them up. If you think they are that disreputable and that people don't know about it, then out them. If you do nothing to stop their practices (at least by identifying them with proof to back up your claims) then you can't have that much of a problem with what they are doing.



Alrighty then. Why isn't there a single Punchline dog in the OFA database? I looked under both APBT and AmStaf as they have had litters of both. They have had multiple generations, but not a single one is listed. Sure, maybe they use PennHip, but there is more to test for than just hips.


mnp13 wrote:Bull. They are there, you just have to LOOK.... oh, and not miss meet up after meet up after meet up with people who have good prospects. Connor fits the bill 100%, he pretty much taught himself to do area serches and is very good at them. He's insanly driven and works until he's literally falling over. He came from a dumpster.



Yup, there are a couple out there. But there aren't a ton.


mnp13 wrote:bull again. I have one. Chris has a few. Demo has one. I know of three or four others.



Yup, I have one, too. I've met a couple others, too. Problem? I've met HUNDREDS of Pit Bulls. When I'm only seeing a handful of bombproof dogs out of one of the most popular breeds in America, that is disgusting. Especially when that is supposed to be one of the Halmarks of the breed.


mnp13 wrote:I seem to recall Diane posting that Dirk has bad conformation. Is she planning to hard cull that litter to get rid of the ones who are put together wrong? I hope so.



He's relatively straight in angulation. I've seen way worse drooled over on message boards. She makes him sound a lot worse than he really is, when I finally met him I didn't think he was nearly as bad as she made him sound. I'm tough to impress, it's not often that I see a Pit Bull that I REALLY like that I think would better the breed. Dirk is one of them. He is a NICE dog.


mnp13 wrote:When you are as public about your opinions as Diane is, you are held to that level and expected to practice what you preach.

We are all hypocrites sometimes. It's part of human nature. However most of us don't show off about being that way.

She posted about Havok on PBF to flaunt her purchase to everyone. "Look what I did and I dare you to criticize me for it." Now she is breeding???? What respect I had for her is completely 100% gone.



Yup, the whole thing was hypocritical. But, opinions change, and I'm not of the opinion that this breeding (let's pretend the pup will eventually be bred to Dirk) will be a terrible thing.


cheekymunkee wrote:Oh please. :rolleyes2: STOP making excuses for her. If it were ANY one else you'd be all over them like flies on poop.



And, I admit that I might have been. I was not one of her biggest fans. Then I met her in real life, and my opinion changed. Not to one of being a fan, but one that could see that what you see on a message board is not what you get in real life.


cheekymunkee wrote:She couldn't find bomb-proof dogs because she isn't looking for them. I see them every damn day. Look at most of the dogs that came out of Lousiana. Bad Rap says they are some of the best tempered dogs they have ever seen. Guess what?? We got em here too. I have one draped across the end of my bed. Justice, I would not call bomb-proof, she is a bit shy but she warms up very quickly & ends up in your lap.



BadRap also says that they are seeing a lot more scary dogs in there area, too. As in, the local dogs. I'm not impressed with the local dogs at all.

Besides that, there is a lot more other than being bombproof that a dog needs to be a working candidate. Now, add in working drive and biddability. Finding all of those in proper amounts in one dog that wasn't bred for the purpose. That is why most dogs in those fields are ones that are bred for it.

Perhaps many of the Katrina dogs are great. I haven't met any. But, I've had lots of people tell me all about their dog's great temperament, only to leave me with a lot to be desired. After having that happen many, many times, I've gotten pretty skeptical and unwilling to trust what I can't see with my own eyes. I'm picky, and most people aren't as picky as I am.


cheekymunkee wrote:I don't know what kind of pit bulls you guys have up north but if you want to see some REAL bull dogs, come down south. I've seen some squirrley dogs but they way YOU put it, every dog you see is. I don't know what ya'll have or where you are getting them but maybe you are looking in the wrong place.



I just open my eyes and look around me at dogs I see at shows, at work, and around the city. I can count on the fingers on one hand how many I thought had the temperament a Pit Bull should have.

Yes, I know she's a hypocrite about corrections and confinement. I think she's one of those people who doesn't think about the fact that what works for one person may not work for another. But, I don't think her personal opinions are what would make this potential breeding a good or bad idea. I certainly see a lot of potential in it.
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Postby mnp13 » March 22nd, 2006, 11:23 pm

concreterose wrote:I see the edit button has gone the way of the crapper here too lol


It'll be back, we promise :D
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Postby mnp13 » March 22nd, 2006, 11:57 pm

odnarb wrote:Alrighty then. Why isn't there a single Punchline dog in the OFA database? I looked under both APBT and AmStaf as they have had litters of both. They have had multiple generations, but not a single one is listed. Sure, maybe they use PennHip, but there is more to test for than just hips.


That is something that Chris will have to answer. However, you have been making this 'there are breeders that everyone loves that are really horrible' for longer than you have known Chris existed... he's an easy one to target now because he's here. So, let's hear the other ones you have been referring to for the past few months.
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Postby odnarb » March 23rd, 2006, 12:49 am

mnp13 wrote:That is something that Chris will have to answer. However, you have been making this 'there are breeders that everyone loves that are really horrible' for longer than you have known Chris existed... he's an easy one to target now because he's here. So, let's hear the other ones you have been referring to for the past few months.



Actually, I probably knew about Chris long before you did. I first encountered him 7-8 years ago on either Rob Chesser's APBT-L, or its successor, APBTUnite, when Rob went righteous on us. Don't remember which of the two lists it was as it was so many years ago. Chris didn't last long then, either. I seem to recall a bunch of dogmen running him off the list.

One of the other darlings is RoKi. They have gotten a few dogs from breeders just like Tatonka, but nobody seems to blink an eye at that. There have been many reports of dogs destroyed for human aggression and health problems, but that gets swept under the rug. When I visited their home, they had like 12 dogs, but not remotely the facilities for that many dogs, so most of them live in crates. There were a lot of feces in the few small outdoor kennels that they had, as well as in the yard. Perhaps they just hadn't scooped yet. But, they knew we were coming over, and I would certainly scoop before somebody came over to look at my dogs! I was so saddened and sickened by the dogs living in crates. That is no life for a dog.

The other that comes to mind is Matrix, but you may remember that big blow up a couple of months back. It was another round-about of this very discussion, where I was defending returning to old school lines for fresh blood, and the hypocrisy of torching Diane while we praise others who do the same thing. The foundation dogs of Matrix were purchased from breeders that don't test, and they bred to an untested dog. That caused a public uproar, in which Scot told me to apologize for saying he bred to an untested dog. However, there is no proof that the dog was tested, as apparently after breeding and showing for 3-4 years, he was then qualified to interpret radiographs himself. But apparently, that is OK for some breeders, but not others. Because if Joe Bob Breeder came on saying he read his own films, there would be an explosion.

Some are flamed to a crisp, and some are immune to any negativity. Still haven't figured out what the link is, or why some are above scrutiny. It really makes no sense to me at all. However, having pretty show dogs that weight pull seems to earn big brownie points and gloss over things that people may find distasteful.

But again, these folks are all a dime a dozen. There are tons more just like them, ranging from pretty darned responsible to in it for money and glory. I'm sure I can think of a few more, but I'm in the middle of an awesome movie, and I'm a bit distracted.

Werewolves, vampires, and Bill Nighy. Does it get any better? :wink:
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Postby mnp13 » March 23rd, 2006, 1:07 am

Well, ok then. :)

I don't really know much about Matrix, but I did have some opinions on RoKi over that whole Jaq thing last year.... :wink:
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Postby odnarb » March 23rd, 2006, 1:15 am

mnp13 wrote:Well, ok then. :)

I don't really know much about Matrix



Honestly, they are in the top five as far as responsible pitterstaf breeders go. They do show and health test the dogs that they own and breed. But, my point was that other people get flamed for exactly the same thing. It seriously baffles me.


but I did have some opinions on RoKi over that whole Jaq thing last year.... :wink:



My list of folks I trust have the breed's best interest in mind has gotten smaller and smaller. It used to be much larger, but over the years the list has dwindled to nearly nothing.

Still not even sure if I'll ever own another. I'm getting rather taken with this Malinois, but I sure love my pit bulls. And, there are a few breedings that may happen in years to come that have my interest, in both bulls & jackals. Time will tell where I end up. As long as laws permit, I intend to have both.
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Postby bahamutt99 » March 23rd, 2006, 1:19 am

cheekymunkee wrote:I hope you feel better Lindsay. I have had a cold for about 2 weeks now & I am ready to die.


Kinda trippy. I felt like someone had shoved an apple in my ear, took some Ibuprofen, got better. :? Now I feel like a whimp.

We've been saying for a while how nice it would be to see an ADBA-style breeder who health-tested and titled their dogs. In that respect, this could be a good thing. My bone of contention is how strenuously she pushed rescue as being perfectly acceptable for acquiring a working dog, how she talked not-nice about Tatonka, and then how she did a 180 and is now basing a kennel on them.

As per the entry of Matrix into this discussion, I really don't wanna touch it. (Don't make me do it, please! I've been being good!)
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Postby cheekymunkee » March 23rd, 2006, 1:45 am

My bone of contention is how strenuously she pushed rescue as being perfectly acceptable for acquiring a working dog, how she talked not-nice about Tatonka, and then how she did a 180 and is now basing a kennel on them.


Mine as well. This "do as I say, not as I do " crap is for the birds. At one time, did she not have "don't breed or buy while shelter pits die" all over her website? New site, new motto I guess. And, recently her site said" Responsible breeders ARE NOT breeding at this time." NOW it reads " Responsible breeders ARE NOT breeding for public resale at this time'"

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Postby odnarb » March 23rd, 2006, 1:51 am

cheekymunkee wrote:And, recently her site said" Responsible breeders ARE NOT breeding at this time." NOW it reads " Responsible breeders ARE NOT breeding for public resale at this time'"



It's said "not for public resale" for a long, long time. I discussed that with her a few years ago.
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Postby Romanwild » March 23rd, 2006, 9:13 am

Defend her all you want. Name kennels. That doesn't excuse her. She wrote the books. She put up the website. She appeared on national TV. No one forced her into the position of breed ambassador.

She didn't just change her mind. She betrayed the entire communinty.

If she breeds I hope she does it right but IMO she has already started off on the wrong foot and she knows better.

I own a RE BYB. I didn't know better. What's her excuse?

I understand that she's your friend. I just don't know why you're defending her. :?

Oh! I know why:
obnarb wrote:
If Havoc turns out to be as nice of a dog in drive and temperament as Dirk, it has my attention. If I could get a dog that works like Dirk, and looks like Havoc, I will have reached the pinacle of my ideal Pit Bull, and I'll be able to die a happy woman.


How much was the deposit? :wink:
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