how do i convert from prong to lead?

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Postby chance's mom » March 8th, 2006, 12:33 am

so chance walks great on a prong collar, however we took him to the vet and they brought him out on a lead and he was dragging the girl! i thought he was just glad to see me but when i got the end of the lead he started pulling til he was gasping for air???? i have been wanting to get him used to a lead so i can get him used to it, for when i get him tt tested, etc. i dont believe a prong collar will work in those instances. plus i would just love to get him good enough not to need a prong! my plan is to get him used to it in the house, walk him around on it give him treats if he does well and doensnt pull but walks nicely on it, then move on to outside when no one else is around, then with other people. i cant tell when someone might walk outside though and chance scares them when he starts pulling towards them, he is kinda big even though all he wants to do is say hi and lick them, people still watch the news and get scared you know? any advise? do i have the right idea?
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Postby mnp13 » March 8th, 2006, 12:39 am

s-l-o-w-l-y

put a flat collar on with his prong. start switching between them as needed. show chance that you can control him whenever you want to, and if he misbehaves go to the prong immediately. Before too long, you will be able to walk him just on the flat. then you take the prong off, but carry it in your pocket. When he's a jerk, it goes back on. The next walk, start out without it if he is being good.

The idea is to let him know that you can produce the prong collar at will. You allow him to make the choice to be a jerk, so you allow him to 'ask' to have the prong back on.

He'll get the point and decide to behave.
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Postby dogcrazyjen » March 8th, 2006, 10:09 am

Awesome advice!
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Postby chance's mom » March 8th, 2006, 10:59 pm

i agree, and with his personality that will work perfect! thank you :dance:
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Postby mnp13 » March 8th, 2006, 11:34 pm

Please let me know how it goes!
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Postby katiek0417 » March 10th, 2006, 11:29 am

One of the things I did with my lab was I actually put the prong on, and put her flat collar OVER the prong. So the prong was inside the flat. I hooked the lead to the flat collar, but if she pulled, she still felt the prong (and b/c she didn't hear the jingle of the chain on the prong, she didn't really know it would still affect her).

It worked nicely for me....but who knows...could've been a fluke!!!
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Postby k » March 12th, 2006, 1:16 am

chance's mom wrote:so chance walks great on a prong collar, however... i have been wanting to get him used to a lead so i can get him used to it, ... i would just love to get him good enough not to need a prong! ... any advise? do i have the right idea?


first, i personally wouldn't walk him for exercise on a prong collar. he should only be wearing a prong when you want him to learn something from it. it is a training tool and should be treated as such, not as a crutch. unless you have a really hard dog, it is easy to teach them to focus on you when walking.

you can do it with a prong or a choke chain, but you need to be willing to correct your dog. here's what i do, and have had success with on many different dogs. you need a sturdy 6 ft lead and a good strong collar, either choke or prong. tell him 'let's go' or something similar, and start walking. when he gets in front of you - as soon as he gets where he can't possibly see you, then turn and walk hard in the opposite direction. he will hit the end of the lead, and will auto correct himself firmly. he will then turn to catch up with you, and will most likely bolt past you in your current direction the first couple of times. repeat. as soon as he gets where he can't see you, turn and head the other direction. if you have to do it 10 times, which you probably won't - don't stop. as soon as he walks next to you, looking at you - praise the hell out of him - treats, whatever. as soon as he pulls past you - turn hard 180 degrees and start over. you're teaching the dog to keep his eyes on you - and he can't possibly be pulling in front of you if he has his eyes on you. it's a physical impossibility. do this for 10 minutes or so for a few days, and you'll notice a change right away. it's not even a formal heel, but you'll see that your dog pretty much walks in heel position fairly quickly, and it has nothing to do with the collar, it's you he's heeding, not the collar on his neck. to many people teach their dogs to respect their collar, and not the person on the end of the lead....
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Postby odnarb » March 12th, 2006, 1:51 am

k wrote:first, i personally wouldn't walk him for exercise on a prong collar. he should only be wearing a prong when you want him to learn something from it. it is a training tool and should be treated as such, not as a crutch. unless you have a really hard dog, it is easy to teach them to focus on you when walking.



I will admit, I take my dogs for walks for exercise on prongs. I have three dogs, and live in an apartment. I'm usually walking more than one dog at a time. While my dogs are trained, I am not too keen in going ass over teakettle when one of the Three Stooges has a primal brain fart and decides to go after one of those kitties that live in the dumpster.

I will fully admit to using the prong collars as crutches :bite:
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Postby Romanwild » March 12th, 2006, 9:35 am

I'm with you Aimee. Guilty as charged.

I commit the pit bull cadinal sin of walking 2 of them at once. When I do that I put their prongs on. I have maximum control that way and can control them when a off leash dog approaches.
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Postby k » March 12th, 2006, 10:22 am

odnarb wrote:
I will admit, I take my dogs for walks for exercise on prongs.

I will fully admit to using the prong collars as crutches :bite:


well, at least you know how to use one. how many times do you see people walking dogs with prong collars 4X too large, and definitely not put on the dog properly? i cringe every time i see some dog trying to enjoy himself and the owner is correcting him with every time they turn to look at the flowers or yell at the kids...
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Postby ellie@ny » March 12th, 2006, 10:50 am

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Postby Romanwild » March 12th, 2006, 11:30 am

k wrote:
odnarb wrote:
I will admit, I take my dogs for walks for exercise on prongs.

I will fully admit to using the prong collars as crutches :bite:


well, at least you know how to use one. how many times do you see people walking dogs with prong collars 4X too large, and definitely not put on the dog properly? i cringe every time i see some dog trying to enjoy himself and the owner is correcting him with every time they turn to look at the flowers or yell at the kids...


I wonder why the manufactuers don't include instructions on fitting.
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Postby odnarb » March 12th, 2006, 3:27 pm

Romanwild wrote:I commit the pit bull cadinal sin of walking 2 of them at once. When I do that I put their prongs on. I have maximum control that way and can control them when a off leash dog approaches.



Guilty of the cardinal sin, myslef. But, I'll up you one Malinois as well :thbbbbt:

Yeah, I see the people using them incorrectly. Just five minutes ago, actually. When I drove up from training, my neighbor was walking a small Lab pup on a prong big enough for a large adult Rottweiler.

I have no idea why no instructions come with prongs and chokes. But then again, they come with Gentle ELaders, but how often do you see those fitted properly? :|
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Postby katiek0417 » March 12th, 2006, 4:56 pm

I keep the pinch ON my lab at ALL times (she's in a plastic kennel), even if I'm walking her on the flat collar. She's collar sensitive. When I used to switch back and forth, she would behave when it was on (even if I wasn't walking her on it), then totally act up when it was off. Did the same thing with the electric collar.

When I do walk her on the pinch collar, I have a different command which tells her she is allowed to "roam."

Even though PetSmart/Petco/other major chain trainers are not supposed to condone the use of pinch collars (or any punishment methods), they should still be trained on how to use them (as often they are selling these things to people). I can't tell you how often I've gone into PetSmart, and have had to tell the trainer how to use these methods. Not to say all trainers at these chain stores are like this, some are very knowledgeable about different training methods, but many are not.
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Postby odnarb » March 12th, 2006, 9:32 pm

katiek0417 wrote:Even though PetSmart/Petco/other major chain trainers are not supposed to condone the use of pinch collars (or any punishment methods), they should still be trained on how to use them (as often they are selling these things to people).



Ex-Petco trainer, here. They are allowed to use pinch and punishment methods, although you are encouraged to use +R only. I wouldn't have worked for them if I wasn't allowed to use pinch collars :D
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Postby katiek0417 » March 12th, 2006, 11:39 pm

Where do you live?...both the petco's around my house won't use them. I asked when I first took my lab there to sign her up for training (maybe about a year and a half ago).
"Rumor has it, compulsion is evil."

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Postby mnp13 » March 12th, 2006, 11:48 pm

The PetCo and the PetSmart near me are 'positive only', and strongly recommend the use of haltis/gentle leaders for the people who come in with problem dogs.

Maybe it's a per-store policy?
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Postby odnarb » March 12th, 2006, 11:59 pm

katiek0417 wrote:Where do you live?...both the petco's around my house won't use them. I asked when I first took my lab there to sign her up for training (maybe about a year and a half ago).



Portland, Oregon.


mnp13 wrote:The PetCo and the PetSmart near me are 'positive only', and strongly recommend the use of haltis/gentle leaders for the people who come in with problem dogs.

Maybe it's a per-store policy?



Perhaps it is by district as well.

The training program used to be run by another company (Animal Behavior & Training Associates - ABTA) as a partnership w/ Petco. I originally started with ABTA, and we could run our classes pretty much any way we wanted provided we weren't beating and hanging dogs, and recommended products that the store carried. I could deal with that.

Then, Petco cut ties with that company and took over the program themselves. A lot of the ABTA trainers were grandfathered in, and became Petco employees. I had actually quit before the switchover, but then I came back for a while as an employee of Petco. I quit because it wasn't enough money to make it worthwhile.

But anyway, the training program is run in districts, and there are heads of programs in each district. Could be our training director was more open minded, or they gave more freedom to the former ABTA trainers. Not sure, but I was using prongs in classes as recently as last summer.
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Postby katiek0417 » March 13th, 2006, 12:04 am

That might be it, Michelle...it's very possible there's a different policy per store, or per "district trainer" (I know that PetSmart has district trainers, not sure about Petco, though).

Also, I know as far as PetSmart, they actually changed their "policy" not too long ago (a couple of years ago, I think). The girl that I took Sacha to had been there before the change, and she said that before the change, they used ALL training methods, remote collars, pinch, and choke chains....Then they went to all positive. According to the trainer, all the trainers that were already "certified PetSmart trainers" had to be "re-certified" under the new policy.

I don't have a problem with all positive, trust me...I have a problem with not teaching a "No." :confused: But maybe that's just me.
"Rumor has it, compulsion is evil."

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Postby chance's mom » March 27th, 2006, 10:26 pm

well i guess i should update you all on how chance did when i put the lead on him, he did perfect!!! he still has the same problem on the lead ( a little more of a problem) than with the pinch collar.....distractions. between that and him barking becuase he gets so excited to see other dogs thats what we are working on right now. i really dont like that he gets so overanxious that he will bark to get the dogs to play with him while on a leash. i try to teach him "no play" while on the leash, that is still going. takes a little trial and error with him. i never use all positive, or all negative with him, he reacts differently under different circumstances to each! i will keep you updated though
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