Anyone heard of this guy?

This forum is all about training and behavior. Everything from potty training to working titles!

Postby dogcrazyjen » March 8th, 2006, 11:14 am

http://www.mastersway.com/mastersway.php

His videos are increadable-very impressive. However, he considers clickers to be a fad, and he does not play competitive sports like flyball, agility, disc, etc, which seem to be very different than obedience and PP work. Seems like NOT my style of training, but he gets results on his dogs, no mistaking that. And they seem pretty happy. Certainly more than one way to skin a cat!

Just wondering what people think.
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Postby mnp13 » March 8th, 2006, 11:31 am

I spoke to him on the phone last year and he seems like a pretty good guy.

But I'm not impressed with some of the videos. Ok, I'm impressed by them, as the heeling looks cool but to me, they don't exactly show responsible dog ownership.

For example: in one of them he is off leash heeling two dogs and they are being followed by a Dalmation. And how exactly would he have controlled the situation if that Dalmation had picked a fight with one or both of his dogs? That happened to me with my dog on leash and it was bad enough.

And off leash heeling on a busy street? Personally, I'd never do it, not a chance.

It definately looks cool though.
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Postby Romanwild » March 8th, 2006, 12:02 pm

I went to his home a year ago to see about training with him.

He demo'd Bugsy for me and it was very cool. The dog was very happy working with him.

He's on the pricey side for a dog trainer but he has some large titles from k9prosports.
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Postby mnp13 » March 8th, 2006, 12:04 pm

Is that the 'go away for two hours' guy?
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Postby Romanwild » March 8th, 2006, 12:07 pm

5 hours, yes
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Postby mnp13 » March 8th, 2006, 12:22 pm

never in a million years....

no freekin way.
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Postby Maryellen » March 8th, 2006, 12:25 pm

no way. i would never leave my dogs with anyone for training... never.... oh the horror stories i have heard...
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Postby mnp13 » March 8th, 2006, 12:51 pm

dogcrazyjen wrote:However, he considers clickers to be a fad,


Well, to an extent, they are. The 'clicker' itself anyway. You can click with your mouth or use any word the exact same way. It's just conditioning.
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Postby cheekymunkee » March 8th, 2006, 12:52 pm

Unfortunatly I did this with Munkee when he was a baby (NOT this guy) , I was going to Cancun so I boarded him with a trainer for a week. I cannot be positive but I think he abused him. And I can't put my finger on why I think that. Just a feeling and the fact that Munkee shies away from big black men. He warms up to them right away but he does seem a bit leery of them at first & there is NO other reason for him to be this way. A "normal" size black man he is fine with but a big one he seems leery of. :|
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Postby mnp13 » March 8th, 2006, 12:58 pm

Exactly. Not that he necesarily abused him, but at the same time, if he used methods that your dog couldn't handle then it might as well be abuse. Was he supposed to train him while you were gone or just put him in a kennel?

I'm taking a h-u-g-e leap for me when we go to Holland and leaving the dogs with a good friend of mine, only because I know for certian that she will follow their care instructions to the letter. Normally I'd leave Ruby with my parents, but we need somewhere for Connor and Riggs to go so we decided on leaving all three with her.

I looked at kennels for Connor and Riggs, but couldn't find any for less than $15 per dog, per day, that had indoor outdoor runs. I want them to put them in and lock the door and not touch them for the two weeks. feed them, water them and hose out the kennels. that's it. But 17 days at $30 a day is a 'bit' prohibitive.

I'm going to have a few "dog people" on call just in case she has any problems though. She is great with Ruby but the boys can be a 'bit' much sometimes.
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Postby Romanwild » March 8th, 2006, 12:59 pm

Great, now pit bulls are racist. Nice going Deb! :rolleyes2:
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Postby cheekymunkee » March 8th, 2006, 1:06 pm

Romanwild wrote:Great, now pit bulls are racist. Nice going Deb! :rolleyes2:


:backRoll:

Michelle, he was supposed to run through basic OB with him, which he did. But Munkee cannot handle firm correction...at ALL. He learned what the guy wanted him to learn & he learned it qucik but I am not that happy with the "results".
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Postby mnp13 » March 8th, 2006, 1:09 pm

Romanwild wrote:He's on the pricey side for a dog trainer but he has some large titles from k9prosports.


All I could find on the K9 ProSports website was 2 firsts at regional trials and a second at the 'World Championships' but then again, I have no idea if the website is kept current, so there may be more.
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Postby Malli » March 8th, 2006, 1:26 pm

I am leery of him simply because he reminds me of the trainer I took my "professional" trainer's course with.
He had border collies. He expected all dogs and breeds to react like border collies. He did not understand Oscar (nor at that point did I)
He had me put my dog on a device that was a fur saver folded back tight on itself and that clipped to the leash (I brought my dog to the vet on that collar one time, he freaks, pulls back his eyelids, shows me the red lines, and tells me the dog is choking, I had already been uneasy with the collar).
When I first started the course I was unsure as to weather Oscar had dominant agression. He held me back on doing the down with him forever, until he could work with him, I'll never forget it, it almost made me cry. He was so hard on the dog. It was like, "look at me, bringing the big Pit Bull to it's knees", thats how I felt. He had zip knowledge of the Breed, period, and this from someone who had been "training" for 20 (? I think) years.
He also convinced me to let him used Oscar as a test dog on other dogs in the class with minor aggression. Another huge mistake, now I have a dog reactive dog, hmm.....
Long story short (sort of) I didn't end up passing the class because I wouldn't have my dog on the collar for the last bit of school, I was never informed about a portion of my grade, and I generally did not get along iwth the guy at that point.
I tried to re-test, he gave me the run-around for a long time, I complained about him, and he accused me of excessively choking and yelling at my dog.
$8000 (including living expenses) down the drain.

Ok, so I know they are not all bad, granted I learned a fair bit (and some about what not to do) but I'll think twice if there ever is a next time.

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Postby mnp13 » March 8th, 2006, 1:37 pm

Malli wrote:$8000 (including living expenses) down the drain.


Please tell me you added one extra 0 by mistake...

What a crackpot to have tried to teach you to train that way! What certification was that for?
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Postby Malli » March 8th, 2006, 2:18 pm

no mistake, I am still paying the loan I took out.
The course was 3 months long.

His name is Ben Kerson, the school is called 'Ben Kersen and The Wonderdogs Dog obedience training'.

Oh, he also made a joke with his regular (traditional class training) clients, who were frightened of my dog, in front of me, that they'd better watch out for the Pit Bull, ha ha.

You want his web site?

I HATE him. Even after we've been out of school for 3.5 years, I can't talk about him or I can't stop ranting.

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Postby dogcrazyjen » March 8th, 2006, 5:16 pm

My goal is to get that sort of control using positive methods.

There are trainers for all sorts of people. I have had clients who would have rather gone to this guy, they did not want a working relationship, they wanted a well behaved pet. He can deliver that. I want more than that, and I do not believe you [usually] get that leaving your dog with someone to train. I have also had some clients who would not dream of going to anyone who uses his methods.

I had thought to try a consultation with him, but it does not sound like something I really am interested in now. I really do admire his control but there are others who have that who can teach me methods that are more in sync with where my comfort zone is.

Malli, your trainer sounds like a nightmare. I tell my clients that if anyone swears they have a cure-all method, walk away. No one method will work for every dog and every handler.
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Postby mnp13 » March 8th, 2006, 5:29 pm

dogcrazyjen wrote: No one method will work for every dog and every handler.


egg-xac-lee

Which is why I steer clear of anyone who bills themselves as 'positive only'. In my opinion if you refuse to explore any (reasonable) training method you are selling yourself, your dog and your clients short.
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Postby Pitcrew » March 8th, 2006, 7:50 pm

I have never met this guy... but I know people who have trained with him, who liked him and had good results.
I have also had at least 3 dogs as clients who were not only VERY unhappy, when they were told their was something WRONG with their dogs :? because his methods didnt work. One of them was told their 6 month old Weimaraner should be put to sleep! :o
There was absolutely nothing wron with any of these dogs other than that they were to sensitive for his methods. The Weim actually needed alot of rehab. just to handle BEING on a leash after her experience with him.
Any GOOD trainer in my opinion should have enough experience and skill to handle any personality type of dog. Not just the harder personalities that can handle harsh methods and shrug it off.
I dont have any problem with corrections for the dogs and behaviors that NEED it. Especially in pet classes. Most of those people/dogs need control. But I do mostly do marker training for the students who are interested and commited enough and want more.
I guess all trainers have their market. I think the name of his business says it al for me... Masters Way. :rolleyes2: Macho BS if you ask me.
But if thats what some people want... I guess its okay.
I will be starting up some classes soon in the Skaneatles area and possibly Seneca Falls. PM me if you are interested.
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Postby mnp13 » March 8th, 2006, 7:57 pm

What Charles posted says it all for me.

You have to leave your dog with him for 5 hours. You can't stay and watch. You can't be there at all.

As if I would ever leave Ruby with a total stranger who won't let me watch what is being done. When someone feels the need to hide there is usually a reason for it. If he wants the owner out of sight, there is a thing called one way glass that could be installed in the training area.

I am amazed that people can be convinced that it is necessary. Would they leave their kid alone with a total stranger for 5 hours?
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