working dog/pet dog

This is where to talk about Pit Bulls!

Postby SisMorphine » March 5th, 2006, 10:58 am

DD, that was a fantastic explanation. Thank you.

I would like someone to come to my house and meet my Greyhound. He is spoiled. He sleeps on my bed, naps on the couch, and gets snuggles and cuddles from everyone. It's a chore to shove him out the door to potty when it's not perfect weather and I can count on one hand how many times I've ever seen him full out run in the 1.5 years he has lived with me.

Then I would like them to look at his racing record. He was really good. He got 1st in over 1/3 of his races. He was retired at 4.5 whereas most Greys are retired at 2-2.5.

He could NOT race now. He cannot be a pet and a working dog at the same time. Yes, he is well trained. He has to sit, wait, and make unbreaking eye contact before he gets dinner. He has to sit to go in or out of the house. He has to work for every treat. But this is not a dog with a job. He is a happy dog, because dogs are happiest (well most dogs at least) when their owners are happy, and their owners are happy when they have a well trained dog. Dogs are happy with tasks and do feel the doggy equivilant of pride when they do it right and their humans are happy. But this is still not a working dog.

Granted, I'm not sure I could ever keep a working dog because I don't have the ability to distance myself from something that I want to cuddle all the time, but I respect those who do it.
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Postby odnarb » March 5th, 2006, 3:29 pm

SisMorphine wrote:Granted, I'm not sure I could ever keep a working dog because I don't have the ability to distance myself from something that I want to cuddle all the time, but I respect those who do it.



Then, as somebody that doesn't have a working dog, and probably never has, why don't you think you can cuddle a working dog? :|

Meet my dog's mother, [url=http://www.dantero.com/dogs.php?id=1]Calice du Dantero FRII, SchBH, CD, HCT-s, TF-II, FD, Major pointed (BOB)
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*First Breeder/HOT FRII Female in NARA history
*First dog in NARA to earn the FRII in back to back trials on the same weekend
*2nd place Gold Coast K9 Working Dog Competition
*3rd Place AZ Working Dog Competition

Titles in progress: 1/2 JHD-s & 2/3 HSA-s

And through it all, she's been a family pet.

I was a kennel girl in a working Greyhound kennel all through my teenage years (Eckert Kennels in NW Iowa). He had some big winners, too, a couple who's names I remember were Francis Eckert and Honey Bun Eckert (dam of Kercer). Lovely dogs, but there was nothing about those dogs that would make them so that they couldn't run and be pets at the same time.

But then again the question is, what is a pet? Two of my dogs are more than the average dog, one more than 99% of the dogs alive. But, I live in an apartment, my dogs are inside only, and they chill on the couch with me. Well, Harry climbs on my head on the couch :rolleyes2:

A dog can be both, if the owner is dedicated.
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Postby Pitcrew » March 5th, 2006, 5:55 pm

Perhaps the definition of "working dog" referred to here is mostly, super hard, high drive, police type, working dogs.
Perhaps "pet" here describes, couch potato, dull, spoiled, pampered, fluffer-duffer type dogs.
But I feel working dogs CAN be pets... and pets SHOULD have SOME kind of job or purpose, other than waiting for us to feed or pet them.
Dogs, regardless of breed, are social predators. They thrive on social attention and fulfilling their energy and drives. Be it tracking, hunting, chasing, taking down prey, or eating. As "pets" we often deprive them of a meaningful purpose, or challenge for their bodies or brains.
I have dogs who I expect little of in the way of 'work', but still need to meet certain rules and requirements. NILIF definitely applies in MY house. I also have dogs who, without more serious jobs and expectations, would be serious trouble to the average pet owner.
I have an 18 month old bitch who was trained thru AKC utility exercises by 9 mos. because she needed that much stimulation and control. She also helps (whether I need it or not) with chores with the horse and chickens, including carrying buckets, horse blankets, finding hoof pick I drop, and retrieving young chickens who find themselves astray, unharmed. Rat hunting and excavating holes for me to plant in (some wanted, some not), and frog hunting in the pond, are also serious pass times.
Since starting competing in agility she has qualified about 90% of her runs, and placed mostly firsts and seconds out of the 20'' border collie class (I love kicking BC butt). And she is also a wonderful, entertaining pet. But I do believe she would be a difficult animal for the casual pet owner.
I find my dogs PREFER working for their meals (one kibble at a time), and toys, rather than eating out of a bowl in 5 seconds. They only get the freedom they earn (inside and out).
Pet owners often find that fulfilling some of their dogs natural desires thru training and dog sports makes them better pets. Even expecting specific requirements, controlled behavior, for things otherwise taken for granted, like food, treats, and walks can make great improvements for spoiled pets.
I DO believe my happiest, best behaved, most fulfilled pets, are the ones I do expect MORE from. My "working" dogs.
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Postby Romanwild » March 5th, 2006, 6:15 pm

Lisa always has good posts.

I was going to post but I couldn't put it any better. :)
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Postby DemoDick » March 5th, 2006, 11:32 pm

A dog can be both, if the owner is dedicated.


Dedication has nothing to do with it.

A painter, musician, or mathmetician can be dedicated and still suck. To be a successfull working dog handler you must understand the relationship and then in turn communicate that understanding to the dog. A first time working dog handler will make their job a lot harder if they blur the line between pet and employee.

Again, I am NOT saying that it is impossible. It's also not impossible to fill a swimming pool with a teaspoon. In the end, the pool is just as full as if you had used a fire hose. However using the fire hose is a lot faster, more efficient, and (most importantly) it allows you to get in the pool and have fun swimming a lot sooner.

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Postby odnarb » March 5th, 2006, 11:48 pm

DemoDick wrote:A painter, musician, or mathmetician can be dedicated and still suck. To be a successfull working dog handler you must understand the relationship and then in turn communicate that understanding to the dog. A first time working dog handler will make their job a lot harder if they blur the line between pet and employee.



Perhaps I'm just misunderstanding all of you. What is a pet, and what is an employee? Are people thinking that pet dogs just do whatever the heck they want with very little boundaries?

For me, a pet is a dog that gets to be in the house and hang with the family. I can understand the relationships that I have with my dogs, and communicate with them as well. I can demand compliance, and snuggle on the couch with the dog. I can dress up my widdle snuggle-wuggle poochie in a stupid outfit, and put a title on them, too. My dogs know exactly where they sit, and what is expected of them.

Maybe I'm just some weirdo that can keep my dogs in their places while still enjoying them as pets. I guess I just can't quite figure out why there is such a big deal about this. It is really that hard of a thing to do?
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Postby mnp13 » March 6th, 2006, 12:15 pm

Frankly, it's personal choice.

There are people who choose to have a completely insane dog running around in their home. If you are ok with that, it's none of my business. More power to you.

There are people who choose not to do that, and that is none of my business. Frankly, it's none of your business either.

If the dog is healthy, gets proper exercise and proper mental stimulation who are you to judge?

On the gallery thread, you made a comment that can only be construed as a not-so-vieled accusation of me neglecting Riggs. If a dog is so bored he is chewing his feet, then he is a victim of neglect or is having another medical or emotional issue. Instead of asking me if the redness was due to chewing (which would indicate actual concern) you assume that he is so bored that his only outlet is a dangerous habit caused by boredom.

I don't give a rat's ass if you think that your dog is the world's drivest, crazyiest malinois. I have news for you, I know about two dozen other malinois owners who make the exact same claim. It's really a bunch of BS. You have a malinois, insanity is part of the breed description. You keep that malinois as a house pet. Insanity is what you signed up for.

Do you make the same judegments on people who have highly aggressive dogs who are on a full time crate-and-rotate schedule? Those dogs usually only get a few hours of time out of the crate between work, crating at night and equal time out with the other dog.

I'm glad your dog's houseing situation works for you. That is a good thing. Stop judging others because they don't choose to do the same thing. Riggs will no longer be a 'crate dog' as soon as Riggs doesn't act like a tazmanian devil in a dog costume. He will earn his priviledges, that's the way it goes. I will not risk him killing my cats, brawling with Ruby, injuring himself or eating my house; and that would be the outcome if he was let loose at the present time.
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Postby dogcrazyjen » March 6th, 2006, 12:24 pm

Instead of emplyee, how about your kids? I have to discipline my kids, I cannot let them just run wild, they have limits and boundaries, but I also have to be encouraging, see where their natural talents are, and spend a lot of good quality down time with them. Employees go home to their own social groups, dogs depend on us for their social groups. So if we treat them soley as employees, are they getting all their needs met?


Now I am positive there are many animals who can do that and be fine. There are good examples of that on this board. There are also many who would be very lonely that way. I guess it is why many of the working dogs tend towards aloofness, and why the sport dogs tend towards more friendly. Maybe it is just what you as a human are looking for. Maybe the people who are using pet dogs use pack drive more than working dogs who use prey drive?

I certainly do not know it all, just throwing some thoughts out there hoping to learn something.

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Postby odnarb » March 6th, 2006, 12:35 pm

mnp13 wrote:On the gallery thread, you made a comment that can only be construed as a not-so-vieled accusation of me neglecting Riggs. If a dog is so bored he is chewing his feet, then he is a victim of neglect or is having another medical or emotional issue. Instead of asking me if the redness was due to chewing (which would indicate actual concern) you assume that he is so bored that his only outlet is a dangerous habit caused by boredom.



You just got the dog, I didn't accuse YOU of anything. That type of staining takes a while to build up into something obvious. And, it sure wasn't a week, or however long you have had him. I was wondering what kind of conditions he was being kept in before.


I don't give a rat's fanny if you think that your dog is the world's drivest, crazyiest malinois. I have news for you, I know about two dozen other malinois owners who make the exact same claim. It's really a bunch of BS. You have a malinois, insanity is part of the breed description. You keep that malinois as a house pet. Insanity is what you signed up for.



My point is that people are saying it can't be done. A dog can't be a working dog and a pet. I say it can. And if it can be done with a working Malinois, it can be done with a bulldog or a greyhound. It's not that hard.


Do you make the same judegments on people who have highly aggressive dogs who are on a full time crate-and-rotate schedule? Those dogs usually only get a few hours of time out of the crate between work, crating at night and equal time out with the other dog.



I do, actually. If you have so damned many dog aggressive dogs that they are crated 22/7, perhaps you should move to a place where you can build proper facilities for them. Or, maybe not have so damned many dogs. I get sick of people using this as an excuse, when they themselves are being selfish and not thinking of the quality of the dogs' lives.


I'm glad your dog's houseing situation works for you. That is a good thing. Stop judging others because they don't choose to do the same thing. Riggs will no longer be a 'crate dog' as soon as Riggs doesn't act like a tazmanian devil in a dog costume. He will earn his priviledges, that's the way it goes. I will not risk him killing my cats, brawling with Ruby, injuring himself or eating my house; and that would be the outcome if he was let loose at the present time.



And THAT is certainly reasonable! Let the boy learn the ropes, and he will earn more freedoms. That is common sense.

I'm taking offense to the blanket statement that working dogs can't be pets. Riggs isn't going to do all of the above things because he is a "working dog." It's because he's a wild boy that has never been taught how to behave in the house. There is a difference.
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Postby mnp13 » March 6th, 2006, 12:35 pm

Jen, the 'employee' idea comes from the idea that the dog must earn his 'pay'. that pay can come in the form of house time, food, play time, toys or whatever. If your boss paid you on Monday and then told you to work until Friday what are the odds that you would work your hardest? If he pays you on Friday based on your hard work for the week you'll work harder. It's not much different than NILIF, and many people have seen their dogs transform under that system of training.

Why buy the milk when you get the cow for free?

To use your kids example, there are children who need almost military structure to their lives and they thrive that way. They learn strict self control and they learn how to function within set parameters at all times. Other kids don't need rules or boundries. They find them themselves and then respect them. It depends on the kid. If you try to regulate the life of a 'free form' kid you will crush that kids spirit. If you unstructure the life of a child that needs structure you will be in a world of trouble because you will never get that child under control.
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Postby Karen » March 6th, 2006, 1:19 pm

To use your kids example, there are children who need almost military structure to their lives and they thrive that way. They learn strict self control and they learn how to function within set parameters at all times. Other kids don't need rules or boundries. They find them themselves and then respect them. It depends on the kid. If you try to regulate the life of a 'free form' kid you will crush that kids spirit. If you unstructure the life of a child that needs structure you will be in a world of trouble because you will never get that child under control.
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Know what? When people start equating training dogs and raising kids they totally have no clue IMO. Kids are not dogs just as dogs don't reason and have human instincts, language, and thought process.

Simple fact of WHY Riggs will eat your house is he's not house trained period. That's a fact. He was never taught house manners and that is not your fault Michelle. I don't care what kind of "working" dog you have it behooves you to teach a pup manners in the house. Or is Chris going to contradict Sandra Shaner (seeing how we are talking bitesports). Tetanus, Virus, Anthax, and the other one akll have great manners in the house and are trained in ScH.

As for his feet, they are not chapped. That is from licking or being wet a lot. We have had a wet crazy winter up here and since Chris is 2 towns over our weather is the weather in Acton as well. You said he was in an indoor kennel with a run. Fact of the matter is his feet were wet a lot and he licked them tons to get them dry going by the staining. There is an infection that causes the rust color and between the toes is darker isn't it.

Again not pointing fingers at anyone I just have the same problem with Cuddles and she's had it her whole life. It can be a sign of a weak immune system and I am not saying that it is at all. Nothing to get het up or defensive over but you can have a skin scrape done and rule the fungus out before (if it indeed IS) it becomes a nail bed infection or lead to lovely pustules.
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Postby mnp13 » March 6th, 2006, 1:58 pm

Karen wrote:To use your kids example, there are children who need almost military structure to their lives and they thrive that way. They learn strict self control and they learn how to function within set parameters at all times. Other kids don't need rules or boundries. They find them themselves and then respect them. It depends on the kid. If you try to regulate the life of a 'free form' kid you will crush that kids spirit. If you unstructure the life of a child that needs structure you will be in a world of trouble because you will never get that child under control.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Know what? When people start equating training dogs and raising kids they totally have no clue IMO. Kids are not dogs just as dogs don't reason and have human instincts, language, and thought process.


You know what? the parallels are there for anyone with the logic to draw the lines. Some dogs need absolute structure to function. Some kids needs absolute structure to function. Some dogs can just hang out and do whatever and still have manners. Some kids can hang out and do whatever and still have manners. Wow, that was difficult, wasn't it? Jen used the disipline with her kids as an example, and it was a good example. She didn't say "my dog and my kids are the same" she used an anaology, and it was a decent anaology.

Karen wrote:Simple fact of WHY Riggs will eat your house is he's not house trained period. That's a fact. He was never taught house manners and that is not your fault Michelle. I don't care what kind of "working" dog you have it behooves you to teach a pup manners in the house. Or is Chris going to contradict Sandra Shaner (seeing how we are talking bitesports). Tetanus, Virus, Anthax, and the other one akll have great manners in the house and are trained in ScH.


Really? Then have you met Riggs? Lived with him? Got news for you, Connor would also eat my house, and my neighbors house for dessert. And I dare you to say HE is not house trained. If you don't give a high drive dog something to do, he will find something to do.

And Riggs is house broken, he hasn't even marked in my house and has had plenty of opportunity to do so, even on leash. He also didn't mark in our training area, and didn't pee until we made it out the door. He didn't make it off of the step he had to go so bad (my fault), but he held it while I unlocked the door.

I would hazard a guess that if Riggs was in Chris' house he would have perfictly fine manners. He respects Chris. He doesn't know me and doesn't respect me, so he gets no freedom at this point.

I don't know who Sandra Shaner is, so name dropping won't work with me. Acutally name dropping never works with me. It's not who you know, it's what you do with your own knowledge.

Karen wrote:As for his feet, they are not chapped. That is from licking or being wet a lot. We have had a wet crazy winter up here and since Chris is 2 towns over our weather is the weather in Acton as well. You said he was in an indoor kennel with a run. Fact of the matter is his feet were wet a lot and he licked them tons to get them dry going by the staining. There is an infection that causes the rust color and between the toes is darker isn't it.


Hmmmm... "it is from licking or being wet a lot" which would go with "We have had a wet crazy winter". Last I knew, skin going from wet to dry, wet to cold, wet to dry, etc creates chapped skin. You'll notice that there is a VAST improvement between his feed from Wednesday until Sunday. That leads me to believe that there is nothing to worry about and they will heal now that he is out of wet weather.

His feet are not wet when I take him out of his crate, so he is no longer licking them.

Again Karen, I am quite confused by the fact that you seem to know 'everything' about how Chris trains and keeps his dogs. Have I missed something? Are you a client? A friend? A frequent visitor to the kennel? If not you seem to have a lot of opinions about him based on second/third/fourth hand information. Personally, I was at his kennel and didn't see anything that made me question the care of the dogs.

Karen wrote:Again not pointing fingers at anyone I just have the same problem with Cuddles and she's had it her whole life. It can be a sign of a weak immune system and I am not saying that it is at all. Nothing to get het up or defensive over but you can have a skin scrape done and rule the fungus out before (if it indeed IS) it becomes a nail bed infection or lead to lovely pustules.


See Karen, it is quite clear that you are pointing fingers. So far, Riggs has a weakened immune system or has not been properly taken care of in his kennel. He has not been house broken. He has not been taught to behave in the show ring. Chris has exaddurated his potential, etc etc etc etc etc. You have thrown plenty of comments around that would make people doubt Chris' ethics as a professional dog trainer/handler/owner. I don't know what your problem with him is, and I don't care. This is beggining to border on libel and I'm tired of it.

Unless you have proof of what you are saying, you need to stop commenting on it. As for Riggs, unless you have met him recently, and have first hand knowledge of his physical and mental condition your comments and accusations are not welcomed or appreciated.
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Postby Karen » March 6th, 2006, 2:08 pm

See Karen, it is quite clear that you are pointing fingers. So far, Riggs has a weakened immune system or has not been properly taken care of in his kennel. He has not been house broken. He has not been taught to behave in the show ring. Chris has exaddurated his potential, etc etc etc etc etc. You have thrown plenty of comments around that would make people doubt Chris' ethics as a professional dog trainer/handler/owner. I don't know what your problem with him is, and I don't care. This is beggining to border on libel and I'm tired of it.

Unless you have proof of what you are saying, you need to stop commenting on it. As for Riggs, unless you have met him recently, and have first hand knowledge of his physical and mental condition your comments and accusations are not welcomed or appreciated.
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What a crock. Going on what you and Chris have posted and Chris admitted he has NOT been trained properly for the show ring and he will destroy the hose (that from you too) if he was a rescue dog he would be put down on his info sheet as NOT HOUSEBROKEN. Housebroken is a dog that behaves in the house so you yourself have posted over and over he ISN'T. Don't make excuses that he's a working dog and yadda yadda. That's bunk and I think you realize it.

I did NOT say this dog had an immune related problem only that the fungal infection that I advised you to check on can be an indication of such. I have seen it in many other dogs most that happen to have white legs that they are just taken to the vet and put on a round of meds and it is done with.

Again as to the kennel situation, did you forget that you yourself stated he was in an run with an indoor kennel? Chapped feet are more like a chilblain and flaking skin like exzema not the rusty staining that your photos and the ones on Chris' site show. See he had the stains long before you got him. It happens and tons of dogs get stained like that. It's a crap happens type thing and you either want to make excuses or get to the bottom of it and get rid of it forever. If not, then deal with red icky looking feet off and on for the rest of the dog's existance. I don't really give a crap he's not in my house and he's not my responsibility.

Funny YOU'VE had the dog 10 days and been to Chris' place 1 time yet are all knowing about everything he's ever done and how the dogs are kept 24/7 365? Amazing.
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Postby mnp13 » March 6th, 2006, 3:59 pm

Karen wrote:What a crock. Going on what you and Chris have posted and Chris admitted he has NOT been trained properly for the show ring and he will destroy the hose (that from you too) if he was a rescue dog he would be put down on his info sheet as NOT HOUSEBROKEN. Housebroken is a dog that behaves in the house so you yourself have posted over and over he ISN'T. Don't make excuses that he's a working dog and yadda yadda. That's bunk and I think you realize it.


Housebroken means going to the bathroom in the house as far as I know. And yes, I have done plenty of rescue and that's how they refer to it as well. He doesn't have house manners. That is a totally different issue.

Karen wrote:I did NOT say this dog had an immune related problem only that the fungal infection that I advised you to check on can be an indication of such. I have seen it in many other dogs most that happen to have white legs that they are just taken to the vet and put on a round of meds and it is done with.


Let's see. I told you it was chapped feet. Maybe I have already ruled out fungus. Maybe I haven't. Maybe he has been to the vet about it. Maybe he hasn't. You haevn't bothered to ask so how would you know? As I said, they have made signifigant progress in 5 days. That is a clear indication to me that there is no major underlying issue. If there was, 5 days wouldn't make a difference.

Karen wrote:If not, then deal with red icky looking feet off and on for the rest of the dog's existance. I don't really give a crap he's not in my house and he's not my responsibility.


And AGAIN, they have cleared up signifigantly in the past five days. I find it hard to believe that the stress of moving and a new owner and a new living situation would cause things to clear up and not get worse. You're right, he's not in your house and he's not your responsibility so I'm waiting for you to quit your knit picking and find another person to bitch at.

Karen wrote:Funny YOU'VE had the dog 10 days and been to Chris' place 1 time yet are all knowing about everything he's ever done and how the dogs are kept 24/7 365? Amazing.


Uh, no. What I said was when I was there I didn't see anything that caused me to worry about how the dogs are kept. I also met about 30 people who are quite comfortable with bringing their dogs to Chris on a reqular basis. Or is that a coincidence? That that number of people would just hang out with someone who doesn't take proper care of their dogs. Personally I don't spend time with neglectful owners, it's guilt by association. I don't think they would either. Of course, maybe 30 people were all in on the some conspiracy. :rolleyes2:

And Karen, How many times have you been to Chris' place? You seem to be the expert. Actually you seem to be quite the expert on Riggs as well.

I'm tired of this. I'm not going to respond to your baiting anymore. Frankly, I don't care what you think, and your concern seems to be rooted in finding opportunities to make snide remarks about other people.

There have been plenty of members here who have managed to express concern over things and ask questions in a non-accusitory, non-inflamitory manner. I am more than happy to converse with those people and sort out any concerns they have. I want to hear from them because they may see something I am missing.
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Postby JCleve86 » March 6th, 2006, 4:48 pm

While I don't know Chris and therefore can't comment on anything pertaining to him, I DO know Michelle. I know her ethics are just as high as my own, and that she would not work with someone whose ethics were lacking.

I also know that I (and perhaps several other members) have never owned a truly high drive dog. I won't apply how I feel about my very-low drive couch warmers to Riggs. I do think that with enough training and effort, just about any dog CAN be made into a house dog (or at least have house time), and Michelle has made it clear that that is the intention in due time. You can't just throw a high drive dog into a totally new environment and expect him to behave. Hell, my lazy drooling blobs FREAK OUT in new houses...it's like Sniff n' Bounce Fest 5000. I can't imagine Riggs!
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Postby Pitcrew » March 6th, 2006, 11:52 pm

No offense guys, but this dicussion has gotten a little personal. :(
I can see both sides... but there seems to be no end.

Mind if I get back to the point?

Dog training, regardless of the goal (sport or pet), does involve tallent, skill and commitment. Most importantly it requires a deep understanding of the pupil.
Many people have the commitment, but will always struggle. Some people have the tallent but will never care enough to use it.
Working dog or pet, dogs must be mentally and physically fulfilled. Those requirements differ from dog to dog.
I have known very happy working kennel dogs, and very unhappy spoiled pets and vice-versa. We must make these decisions for our dogs, in their (and our) best interest.
For me personally, I like the challenge of both, with the additional speed-bump of keeping a multi-dog household of bullies (sucessfully, of course ONLY in the most responsible, supervised way). This is where I have learned how important their fulfilment is (physical, mental and drives). This is also where commitment is absolute, and understanding of the subjects involved is important.
How to best do that is a personal decision and should not be judged, as long as the dog is healthy and happy.
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Hyper Adolescent Bully
 
Posts: 350
Location: Central, NY

Postby cheekymunkee » March 6th, 2006, 11:54 pm

Lisa wrote:No offense guys, but this dicussion has gotten a little personal. :(
I can see both sides... but there seems to be no end.

Mind if I get back to the point?

Dog training, regardless of the goal (sport or pet), does involve tallent, skill and commitment. Most importantly it requires a deep understanding of the pupil.
Many people have the commitment, but will always struggle. Some people have the tallent but will never care enough to use it.
Working dog or pet, dogs must be mentally and physically fulfilled. Those requirements differ from dog to dog.
I have known very happy working kennel dogs, and very unhappy spoiled pets and vice-versa. We must make these decisions for our dogs, in their (and our) best interest.
For me personally, I like the challenge of both, with the additional speed-bump of keeping a multi-dog household of bullies (sucessfully, of course ONLY in the most responsible, supervised way). This is where I have learned how important their fulfilment is (physical, mental and drives). This is also where commitment is absolute, and understanding of the subjects involved is important.
How to best do that is a personal decision and should not be judged, as long as the dog is healthy and happy.


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There's a fine line between genius and insanity. I have erased this line.

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cheekymunkee
I Have Your Grass
 
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Location: Dallas

Postby mnp13 » March 7th, 2006, 8:38 am

Bahamamutt put up a great question that deserves its own thread. You can find it in the sports section.
Michelle

Inside me is a thin woman trying to get out. I usually shut the bitch up with a martini.
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mnp13
Evil Overlord
 
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