Matrix on gameness

This is where to talk about Pit Bulls!

Postby cheekymunkee » March 1st, 2006, 12:21 am

He's not banned as far as I know. :|
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Postby Romanwild » March 1st, 2006, 12:22 am

No one has been banned.

If he has something to contribute he is more then welcome to stay. Vauge comments concerning game dogs don't qualify as contributions.

I would love to hear more. :|
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Postby cheekymunkee » March 1st, 2006, 12:25 am

Romanwild wrote:No one has been banned.

If he has something to contribute he is more then welcome to stay. Vauge comments concerning game dogs don't qualify as contributions.

I would love to hear more. :|


I agree. While a game dog discussion can be a learning experience, it is the first hand knowledge comments that are the problem. NOT the knowledge.
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Postby bahamutt99 » March 1st, 2006, 1:44 am

Scot may be new to breeding, but I'm pretty sure he's been around the breed since he was a kid. (I'd have to ask to be sure, but I seem to remember him talking about bulldogs he knew when he was young.) Wouldn't necessarily call him a show breeder either, since he works his dogs.

I think we throw around the word "game" too much. I've said that Loki has "made a game effort" in weight pull and things like that, but I don't dare call her game. She will never know the kind of conditions that she'd have to go through to be proven game.
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Postby mydawgs » March 1st, 2006, 6:55 am

Romanwild wrote:
mydawgs wrote:Roman -

I respect what you are saying, but I too respectfully disagree with the outing of the term "game" when it comes to an APBT. Try this for a read it is quite good and it is easy to understand. And BTW, don't chuckle but I'm the only one I know that has a gamebred petbull.......

Click on the link provided below and then

Start where this question is asked........

What exactly is "gameness"?
[The following is an exchange that occured on bulldog-l between
Scott Bradwell and Wilf LeBlanc. The passages offset with ">"'s
are questions posed by Wilf.]

http://www.faqs.org/faqs/dogs-faq/breeds/apbt/part2/

I think it sums up in one place a lot of the discussion I've seen here in this post, I found it easy to read from a laymans perspective.


That is the first thing I read when I got into the breed. I still reccomend it to people. It's on the back of my Bulldog club's cards. I use this link though:http://www.nyx.net/~mbur/apbt.html

but....

As Colby himself says the time for fighting has come and gone.

We have to understand the history of the breed while NOT glorifying it.


There is no glorification in appreciation. I appreciate the Pit Bulls history. Since the legacy doggers day has passed I worry as to what will maintain the goodness in the the dog that a human vice provided. And I still believe with all my heart as the gentleman said in the clip I referenced "a game dog (or champion) is born not created". In todays society for someone like me all I need to know and understand is the breeds behavior and that I love and admire what makes the breed special, and to me it is that inherent quality I will always refer to as game. I am happy to know they all posess it (at some level) but even the most mildly game APBT (a trait the dog is born with due to its genetics) by far surpassess that trait in any other breed of dog...and to me that is what distinguishes this breed of dog from any other. So I am back to the issue of defining new breeding practices in this modern time that are as bennificial to the breed as the legacy were, I suppose it is that simple for me.
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Postby Purple » March 1st, 2006, 9:34 am

cheekymunkee wrote:
Romanwild wrote:No one has been banned.

If he has something to contribute he is more then welcome to stay. Vauge comments concerning game dogs don't qualify as contributions.

I would love to hear more. :|


I agree. While a game dog discussion can be a learning experience, it is the first hand knowledge comments that are the problem. NOT the knowledge.


I would love to hear more, too. As to the comment about the vague first hand comments don't qualify as contributions, I beg to differ. As long as the comments are based on past events, when "it" was legal, this member is a treasure trove of facinating stories and information. I do not condone fighting. To be able to talk to someone who has actually witnessed our breeds history in the making, now that to me, is priceless.
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Postby JCleve86 » March 1st, 2006, 11:54 am

I agree with purple...mydawgs...

Although we begin to walk a very thin line between discussing the breed's history and current events that ARE very much illegal. I think if any references are made to REAL game dogs or any fighting that went on, it needs to be made crystal clear that these are past events. I realize that kind of contradicts the reason for the post...that modern game dogs don't exist (or rather, that they DO)...but you cannot expect the folks who created this board to break the law and/or allow discussion of breaking of the law by board members. Don't be arrogant about it...

I don't want folks to get the wrong impression about this board. I myself (and plenty of others who are more quick to judge and less quick to think) at one time thought game-dog was essentially an online convention of nothing but dog fighters. I don't doubt some of the members there DO fight dogs, but I've since learned otherwise. I don't want new folks to THIS board to walk away with my intial impression.

I also think that while it is important to educate folks on the difference between media protrayed dog fighting and what it really was, I think many of you would agree that very few people are capable of doing things the right way (if there IS a right way to allow dogs to rip each other up)...so why be so public about it? Yeah, you might prevent some punk from thinking he can train the pit bull he stole from his neighbor to fight, but at the same time, the kids still a punk, and won't be able to get his hands on any real game dogs anyway...much less appreciate them. :|
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Postby cheekymunkee » March 1st, 2006, 12:02 pm

JCleve86 wrote:I agree with purple...mydawgs...

Although we begin to walk a very thin line between discussing the breed's history and current events that ARE very much illegal. I think if any references are made to REAL game dogs or any fighting that went on, it needs to be made crystal clear that these are past events. I realize that kind of contradicts the reason for the post...that modern game dogs don't exist (or rather, that they DO)...but you cannot expect the folks who created this board to break the law and/or allow discussion of breaking of the law by board members. Don't be arrogant about it...

I don't want folks to get the wrong impression about this board. I myself (and plenty of others who are more quick to judge and less quick to think) at one time thought game-dog was essentially an online convention of nothing but dog fighters. I don't doubt some of the members there DO fight dogs, but I've since learned otherwise. I don't want new folks to THIS board to walk away with my intial impression.

I also think that while it is important to educate folks on the difference between media protrayed dog fighting and what it really was, I think many of you would agree that very few people are capable of doing things the right way (if there IS a right way to allow dogs to rip each other up)...so why be so public about it? Yeah, you might prevent some punk from thinking he can train the pit bull he stole from his neighbor to fight, but at the same time, the kids still a punk, and won't be able to get his hands on any real game dogs anyway...much less appreciate them. :|


Exactly! Talk of present day dog fighting brings nothing but trouble to a board. Peta begins to show up, trolls ( i.e. Primrose!!) feds start watching the board, good members leave as they do not want to share the board with a fighter or be associated with a board that supports one. I left a board late last year because there is a dog fighter on it ( it is NOT a pit bull board by the way), this person speaks regularly of matching their dogs...........in present time, they are NOT speaking of the past. I do not want my name assoctiated with theirs. History of the breed is fine to discuss here as long as it remains history.
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Postby Miakoda » March 1st, 2006, 1:38 pm

it is the first hand knowledge comments that are the problem.


Hmmmm. But yet Mr. Colby isn't penalized for what he used to do. In fact, he is highly regarded by most people on these boards. Colby states that there is no longer a place for fighting, but he never stated he was against it. So what makes this "new" guy any different?
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Postby cheekymunkee » March 1st, 2006, 1:39 pm

Miakoda wrote:
it is the first hand knowledge comments that are the problem.


Hmmmm. But yet Mr. Colby isn't penalized for what he used to do. In fact, he is highly regarded by most people on these boards. Colby states that there is no longer a place for fighting, but he never stated he was against it. So what makes this "new" guy any different?


Colby don't post here. :| If he did he would have to refrain from speaking of his present day exploits ( assuming he has present day exploits)
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Postby Miakoda » March 1st, 2006, 1:42 pm

cheekymunkee wrote:
Miakoda wrote:
it is the first hand knowledge comments that are the problem.


Hmmmm. But yet Mr. Colby isn't penalized for what he used to do. In fact, he is highly regarded by most people on these boards. Colby states that there is no longer a place for fighting, but he never stated he was against it. So what makes this "new" guy any different?


Colby don't post here. :| If he did he would have to refrain from speaking of his present day exploits ( assuming he has present day exploits)


Ahhh, I see now. I don't think the guy in question was speaking in terms of present day exploits, just that he knows or has heard of present day gamedogs.

As far as anyone going onto an internet board & spaeking of their own personal exploits, it's not only foolish but bound to get him/her into more trouble than they ever imagined. I agree that crap like that should not be tolerated. (However, most true dogmen don't brag over the internet so maybe that tells us something).
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Postby mydawgs » March 1st, 2006, 1:44 pm

I don't see the need to discuss dog fighting at all when discussing "game". IMHO a dog is born with game or not. Just like humans are born with natural abilities or not, like throwing a baseball, or skating around a rink etc. All fighting does is prove the dog is game and to what degree...I don't care about that. I am only concerned about preserving what makes our dogs unique....

In conclusion a game dog does not equal a fighting dog, many of us may have game dogs and never know it, and who cares. I would like to see us focus on keeping those good and tangible qualities that make our dogs good dogs. I will leave the breeding of the APBT up to those who know what they are doing because I have no expertise there, my only desire and hope all you breeders hear this request, keep our dogs true to what the APBT has always been.....I don't know how you will do this but the dogs of past were great for people to own and associate with.
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Postby Romanwild » March 2nd, 2006, 9:53 am

I appreciate everyones comments. I hope that PPP can come back into the convo and help us out (a little less cryptically) :)

Mydawgs, good posts!
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Postby Purple » March 2nd, 2006, 8:14 pm

Hey Mydawgs, nice to see you out and about again...hope all is going well.....
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Postby mydawgs » March 5th, 2006, 1:03 pm

Hey P -

Things are movin...which means closure...thats a good thing. You should see my Lill workin for me now, its like we are thinkin with the same brain. I guess ya just have to find the right tools for your situation. We are having a blast, and I am so confident of her and ME!!!!!!! Nice to be back.
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Postby Purple » March 5th, 2006, 2:56 pm

mydawgs wrote:Hey P -

Things are movin...which means closure...thats a good thing. You should see my Lill workin for me now, its like we are thinkin with the same brain. I guess ya just have to find the right tools for your situation. We are having a blast, and I am so confident of her and ME!!!!!!! Nice to be back.



Ahhh, so good to hear!!!!!! :sun:
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