Matrix on gameness

This is where to talk about Pit Bulls!

Postby Romanwild » February 27th, 2006, 7:42 pm

oh...ok, thanks again!

I just remember that it really clarified the whole game thing for me.
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Postby Blitzkrieg Staffords » February 28th, 2006, 1:33 am

Romanwild wrote:Even in the fight world a truly "game" dog is one in a million.


I think you would be surprised if you knew how many game dogs there are out there, and I'm not just talking about winners.
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Postby Romanwild » February 28th, 2006, 8:28 am

No offense but how the hell would you know?
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Postby Blitzkrieg Staffords » February 28th, 2006, 10:05 am

None taken.

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Postby Romanwild » February 28th, 2006, 10:07 am

Are you pleading the 5th? :o
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Postby JCleve86 » February 28th, 2006, 11:52 am

Hey...be nice to Staffy boy. I could tell you the same thing and I don't even OWN any type of pit bull. Well, besides my German pit bulls of course. :D
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Postby mydawgs » February 28th, 2006, 1:52 pm

Romanwild wrote:No offense but how the hell would you know?


Well you wouldn't know, but that doesn't mean there arn't game dogs and plenty of them according to the original authors definition. Please note the distinction between a game dog and a proven game dog. It is my humble opinion a dog is either game or it isn't, but since the only true way to test them is by fighting (as I believe that game is multi dimensional and only being tested in the pit stresses all the doggers criteria) then the majority of us will never know, soooooo I think the real issue here is what should the "new" gates for deciding to breed good dogs be, as doggers past used "gameness" as defined in the pit for finding worthy dogs to breed. At least this is what I have concluded from my research.
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Postby Romanwild » February 28th, 2006, 3:47 pm

mydawgs wrote:
Romanwild wrote:No offense but how the hell would you know?


Well you wouldn't know, but that doesn't mean there arn't game dogs and plenty of them according to the original authors definition. Please note the distinction between a game dog and a proven game dog. It is my humble opinion a dog is either game or it isn't, but since the only true way to test them is by fighting (as I believe that game is multi dimensional and only being tested in the pit stresses all the doggers criteria) then the majority of us will never know,


Part of the reason I wanted what Scott wrote was because I thought it made it clear that to even talk about game anymore was a waste of time.

As far as the term "game dog" goes I think that "performance dog" might be a better terminology. To say a dog is game leads to too much confusion within our world and out.

soooooo I think the real issue here is what should the "new" gates for deciding to breed good dogs be, as doggers past used "gameness" as defined in the pit for finding worthy dogs to breed. At least this is what I have concluded from my research.


That is the real issue.

The Bullympics is attempting to bring the bully world together and to create outlets for fun and friendly competition.

TUG OF WAR
HANG TIME ON THE SPRING POLE
DOCK DOG
FRISBEE
AGILITY
FASTEST DOG
WEIGHT PULL

Finding a dog that can compete in these types of events shows a pretty amazing dog and handler. Not to mention something that can be seen in the media without being embarasseds.
[/quote]
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Postby JCleve86 » February 28th, 2006, 3:52 pm

Romanwild wrote:As far as the term "game dog" goes I think that "performance dog" might be a better terminology. To say a dog is game leads to too much confusion within our world and out.


Excellent point...
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Postby PPP » February 28th, 2006, 4:29 pm

JCleve86 wrote:
Back to the point, the historical "game bred" dog was one DIRECTLY sired or whelped off of a dog that was proven and then later had the honored unofficial title of "game" bestowed upon them. Game was an unofficial title of honor bestowed on only a very very few dogs in history. This title was sparingly and grudgingly bestowed by other dog men in honor of a dog. It was NOT an honor bestowed upon a kennel or a person OR a line of dogs. Nor was it a claim that could be made by the owner of the dog let alone the owner of the BYB kennel who buys a dog with XW within the pedigree. Call em whatever you want but performance lines or other similar terminology is more appropriate.

Most of the BYB criminal wanna be kennels cannot even honestly claim that their bred-by dogs fit within the more correct terminology of being performance bred or working lines (e.g. hog dogs) because they do nothing to prove their breeding stock are capable of excelling at performance or working events. Their claim to fame is typically based upon secretive back yard rolls they call "game testing" that do no more to show a dog has true grit than walking them down the street.

That being said there are no TRULY and due honored game dogs left on the planet and consequently there are only a very very few “game bred” dogs still alive.

You say you know of modern day game dogs or game bred dogs? I say you are pretending or at the very most know of criminals and wanna bes who have no clue what the real term meant and probably assigned the term to their own animals which is the utmost in ignorance!

Then you come back saying that hog hunting proves a dog game? That is the penultimate in a silly statement and fully exhibits your lack of true knowledge of the breed. I showed that to a hog hunting buddy of mine running Carver dogs and he practically barfed. For your future reference, a good hog dog is just that, a good hog dog or maybe even a proven catch dog. You can claim it is a way to prove game just like others claim that weight pull proves game. Neither is correct within the true historical framework. Both prove drive, skill and heart and maybe grit in the case of hog hunting. A good hog dog is a good hog dog and in some of those circles that is an honor enough in itself. As eluded to catching under hard duress (very few wild boars can take it that far) does prove grit but the title of game was never utilized as part of catch sports. However, through bull baiting the term did originate as a noun ie “that dog has game”. This meant the dog had grit, determination, tenacity and drive. This term evolved later to become a title of sorts as described above.

Using the word "game" in any form these days is the same as using the phrases "rare blue" or “pure bred merle APBT”. It is false advertising.


With all due respect, the above writtings are Absurd.
Game was an unofficial title of honor bestowed on countless dogs. Back in the day the Game Test was part of many handler's routine before their charge began his or her career. This title was NEVER used sparingly and grudgingly lolol.
Sometimes this so called title would be taken away, if it proved the dog in fact was not game at a later date.
The gamebred dog was and Is, not necessarily out of proven game parents.
There was and are game dogs who were produced by breeding a Cold sire or dam, a sire or dam who had never been tested, and even by a sire or dam who had been proven to be a Cur.
If a dog's pedigree is from tested lines, it is considered Gamebred.
History shows that some Curs and Cold dogs have produced some deep game dogs.
Loposay's Buster ROM was cold. Snooty ROM had stopped on 2 different occasions, and Jack Carver's Night Train quit in horrible fashion, yet produced offspring that proved themselves to be deep game and outstanding Pitdogs.
There are many TRULY and due honored game dogs left on the planet and consequently there are MANY “game bred” dogs still alive.
Yes, I DO know of modern day game, and game bred dogs! I NEVER pretend, and Yes, I DO know and fully comprehend what the real term means.
I dont know where Matrix got his info, but its totally Bogus.
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Postby Romanwild » February 28th, 2006, 5:05 pm

PPP wrote:
Yes, I DO know of modern day game, and game bred dogs! I NEVER pretend, and Yes, I DO know and fully comprehend what the real term means.


That, my friend, you will have to clarify for me.

What don't you pretend?
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Postby PPP » February 28th, 2006, 5:21 pm

PPP wrote:
JCleve86 wrote:
You say you know of modern day game dogs or game bred dogs? I say you are pretending or at the very most know of criminals and wanna bes who have no clue what the real term meant and probably assigned the term to their own animals which is the utmost in ignorance!



Matrix accuses anyone who knows of modern day game dogs or game bred dogs, of Pretending.
I said, I NEVER pretend.
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Postby mydawgs » February 28th, 2006, 7:18 pm

Roman -

I respect what you are saying, but I too respectfully disagree with the outing of the term "game" when it comes to an APBT. Try this for a read it is quite good and it is easy to understand. And BTW, don't chuckle but I'm the only one I know that has a gamebred petbull.......

Click on the link provided below and then

Start where this question is asked........

What exactly is "gameness"?
[The following is an exchange that occured on bulldog-l between
Scott Bradwell and Wilf LeBlanc. The passages offset with ">"'s
are questions posed by Wilf.]

http://www.faqs.org/faqs/dogs-faq/breeds/apbt/part2/

I think it sums up in one place a lot of the discussion I've seen here in this post, I found it easy to read from a laymans perspective.
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Postby PPP » February 28th, 2006, 7:39 pm

Very well written.
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Postby Romanwild » February 28th, 2006, 10:24 pm

PPP wrote:
PPP wrote:
JCleve86 wrote:
You say you know of modern day game dogs or game bred dogs? I say you are pretending or at the very most know of criminals and wanna bes who have no clue what the real term meant and probably assigned the term to their own animals which is the utmost in ignorance!



Matrix accuses anyone who knows of modern day game dogs or game bred dogs, of Pretending.
I said, I NEVER pretend.


I tend to agree with the theory that most are pretending. I see it all the time.

I'm not saying you are or you aren't. The reason I asked for clarification was that it sounds as if you might support fighting. Sorry to be blunt.

If that's the case this isn't a good board for you. If that isn't the case I would ask that when speaking of gameness or anything else dealing with dog fighting that you clearly clarify your personal stand on it. Which I will assume is that you are against it in everyway.

If you know people that fight dogs or who are directly invovled with it but you are against it then why aren't you reporting them?

Would you not turn in an adult that was abusing a child?

If I am way off base please forgive me.
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Postby PPP » February 28th, 2006, 11:33 pm

It was what it was, and it is what it is.
In 1969 I knew every dog in my state and every owner.
I knew most all of the somewhat known dogs in the country, and their owners as well.
I could walk any Pitbull down any street in Denver, and no one would even know what breed the dog was.
Ive watched the small flicker of interest in the APBT turn into a Raging out of control Fire.
It was not the Oldtime dogmen who kept to themselves and kept their dogs safe and secure.
With the popularity of the bench show came the human equation which will ruin anything.
The media found the perfect target to sensationalize. They have created their own monster and it feeds upon itself.
For every dog saved another 500 take its place. For every dogooder who postures and poses about their good deeds. The media and word of mouth, enlisits thousands of thugs and wannabes who are mentored by old wives tales and any sick training method or story a newperson can come up with to sell copy or air time.
I cant help the fact I have 40yrs with this breed. I cant help knowing what I know. I know things about this breed and its history that no one else knows. Ive known dogs like Country Boy and Jimmy Boots. My name appears beside the names of Don Maloney, Bert Clouse, Bobby D. Smith etc.
I respect gameness in dog and Man.
Im OldSchool. I handle my own problems. I dont need to call a cop for anything.
If I have a problem with anyone, the last thing I would think of, is to turn them in lolol. I just dont have a Snitch mentality.
Im sorry that it wasnt the way you and Matrix wanted it to be. Im sorry it isnt the way you want it to be now.
Ive seen all the big splashes come and go. Ive seen all the do gooders such as yourself come and expound and posture. In twenty years God willing, I will still be feeding dogs. In twenty years you more than likely will have moved on to another project.
Whether I approve of matching dogs, or whether I despise and detest the practice, is my own business.
I cannot do a thing to change history. Other than feeding 30 death row dogs, I accept the fact that I really cant do much to change the current tragic state the breed I love is in.
You are correct in stating that this isnt a good board for me.
Be it Bad, Good, what I want to hear or what I dont want to hear,, I want the truth.
I ruined your day, when I exposed Matrix for posting about what he hasnt even got a clue about, didnt I?lol
below is one of the times I fought on ESPN. It hasnt been all that long ago.
I can still TCB when I have to. Perhaps you should turn me in?
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Postby Romanwild » February 28th, 2006, 11:44 pm

mydawgs wrote:Roman -

I respect what you are saying, but I too respectfully disagree with the outing of the term "game" when it comes to an APBT. Try this for a read it is quite good and it is easy to understand. And BTW, don't chuckle but I'm the only one I know that has a gamebred petbull.......

Click on the link provided below and then

Start where this question is asked........

What exactly is "gameness"?
[The following is an exchange that occured on bulldog-l between
Scott Bradwell and Wilf LeBlanc. The passages offset with ">"'s
are questions posed by Wilf.]

http://www.faqs.org/faqs/dogs-faq/breeds/apbt/part2/

I think it sums up in one place a lot of the discussion I've seen here in this post, I found it easy to read from a laymans perspective.


That is the first thing I read when I got into the breed. I still reccomend it to people. It's on the back of my Bulldog club's cards. I use this link though:http://www.nyx.net/~mbur/apbt.html

but....

As Colby himself says the time for fighting has come and gone.

We have to understand the history of the breed while NOT glorifying it.
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Postby Romanwild » March 1st, 2006, 12:00 am

PPP: I asked for clarification from you on your view point. I guess I got that.

I suppose someone who stops someone from beating their spouse or from molesting a child is a snitch. Street justice only huh?

This board is about the dogs. It's a place where people with differing viewpoints can come together for the sake of the breed. That being said dog fighters are not welcome. I don't think they will be a major contributor in saving the breed. Sorry. :|

below is one of the times I fought on ESPN. It hasnt been all that long ago.
I can still TCB when I have to. Perhaps you should turn me in?


Not really sure what TCB is so I guess I can't turn you in for that.

Although I don't have a pic to post I've been in the ring before and I am currently preparing for my "old man comeback" but I don't see what that has to do with this discussion. :confused:
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Postby cheekymunkee » March 1st, 2006, 12:03 am

I've been in this breed for over 40 years myself, my dad loved his bulldogs. BUT not one of my dad's dogs nor mine have ever been fought. As far as I know he knew no men who gloried in the fight. I doubt very seriously he would have been friends with them if they were. His dogs were house dogs, yard dogs, farm dogs. He didn't use them to herd anything or protect anything, except the farm from critters which they did very well. Of course he didn;t trust them around his livestock but as far as I can remember they were never a problem to them. They grew up with pigs, chickens, cows & horses & except for the occasional chase they ignored the other animals. Maybe they were cold, maybe they were curs, maybe they were game, no one knew & no one cared. All I know is that the APBT will and always has had a place in my heart.

Having said that I do not agree with Matrix's definition of game either. There are still plenty of game and gamebred dogs around Texas, he just isn't looking in the right spot.

It will be a shame if you leave the board, I have noticed you are VERY knowledgable and I think you have a lot to share & teach. But this is not a board where fighting will be glorified or supported.........now or in the past. I do not deny my dogs history, I accept it and I accept the breed for what it can do and has done. But I will not glorify it. I have seen my male dog rip into my female & it made me sick, thinking about what I saw still makes me sick 3 years later. I cannot for the life of me understand why people enjoy it. Our breed is in dire straights, it is time to let the past be just that.....the past.
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Postby odnarb » March 1st, 2006, 12:15 am

cheekymunkee wrote:It will be a shame if you leave the board, I have noticed you are VERY knowledgable and I think you have a lot to share & teach. But this is not a board where fighting will be glorified or supported.........now or in the past.



Unfortunately, I don't think he can come back :shock:

Yeah, I realize that talk of dogfighting isn't tolerated here. But, earlier it was mentioned that the pillars of the breed are crumbling, and the knowledge will be lost.

A true fountain of endless information can no longer access the board. He seems pretty computer savvy in conversations past, so I'm guessing maybe he's been banned. Pity :cry:

This is the type of person that is going to teach you about the breed. Not some newbie show dog breeder like Scot.
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