Matrix on gameness

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Postby Romanwild » February 27th, 2006, 3:56 pm

Can someone go to PBF and copy the explanation of gameness by Matrix for me?

I was going to ask him to post it here but I have a feeling he won't be around for a while.

It's a great explanation and I would love to read it again. :D
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Postby Maryellen » February 27th, 2006, 4:02 pm

wher is it???
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Postby Romanwild » February 27th, 2006, 4:04 pm

I believe it's in the general section.
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Postby JCleve86 » February 27th, 2006, 4:05 pm

Because this is a well discussed and completely agreed upon topic that I have had with several real dogmen (RIP and stay young)...

The title of Game is proven and obtained in one way and in one way only.

THE history lesson: Let’s take the dog from history that destroyed in the ring (always won). This dog was NOT game he was talented. A dog that never lost in the ring was never shown, let alone proven, to be game. Thus, all the XWs in a pedigree mean absolutely ZIP in the realm of “gameness”. A game dog was one that never realized they had lost even though they did so in dramatic fashion. Also “game” has nothing to do with overt uncontrolled aggression and there was never seen to be a correlation. That is one of the saddest things that resolved from so many of the publications the community seems to cherish is that we were inadvertently led to conclude that one equaled the other. Every wanna be dog man thinks the more aggressive a dog is the more “game” they are. That makes this old modern dogman puke.

Back to the point, the historical "game bred" dog was one DIRECTLY sired or whelped off of a dog that was proven and then later had the honored unofficial title of "game" bestowed upon them. Game was an unofficial title of honor bestowed on only a very very few dogs in history. This title was sparingly and grudgingly bestowed by other dog men in honor of a dog. It was NOT an honor bestowed upon a kennel or a person OR a line of dogs. Nor was it a claim that could be made by the owner of the dog let alone the owner of the BYB kennel who buys a dog with XW within the pedigree. Call em whatever you want but performance lines or other similar terminology is more appropriate.

Most of the BYB criminal wanna be kennels cannot even honestly claim that their bred-by dogs fit within the more correct terminology of being performance bred or working lines (e.g. hog dogs) because they do nothing to prove their breeding stock are capable of excelling at performance or working events. Their claim to fame is typically based upon secretive back yard rolls they call "game testing" that do no more to show a dog has true grit than walking them down the street.

That being said there are no TRULY and due honored game dogs left on the planet and consequently there are only a very very few “game bred” dogs still alive.

You say you know of modern day game dogs or game bred dogs? I say you are pretending or at the very most know of criminals and wanna bes who have no clue what the real term meant and probably assigned the term to their own animals which is the utmost in ignorance!

Then you come back saying that hog hunting proves a dog game? That is the penultimate in a silly statement and fully exhibits your lack of true knowledge of the breed. I showed that to a hog hunting buddy of mine running Carver dogs and he practically barfed. For your future reference, a good hog dog is just that, a good hog dog or maybe even a proven catch dog. You can claim it is a way to prove game just like others claim that weight pull proves game. Neither is correct within the true historical framework. Both prove drive, skill and heart and maybe grit in the case of hog hunting. A good hog dog is a good hog dog and in some of those circles that is an honor enough in itself. As eluded to catching under hard duress (very few wild boars can take it that far) does prove grit but the title of game was never utilized as part of catch sports. However, through bull baiting the term did originate as a noun ie “that dog has game”. This meant the dog had grit, determination, tenacity and drive. This term evolved later to become a title of sorts as described above.

Using the word "game" in any form these days is the same as using the phrases "rare blue" or “pure bred merle APBT”. It is false advertising.
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Postby Romanwild » February 27th, 2006, 4:45 pm

THX Jamie! You're the bestest! :)
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Postby Blitzkrieg Staffords » February 27th, 2006, 5:28 pm

I agree with most of what they say, but, just because he doesn't own game dogs that doesn't mean they don't exist. :wink: :hearNoEvil:
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Postby odnarb » February 27th, 2006, 5:34 pm

Blitzkrieg Staffords wrote:I agree with most of what they say, but, just because he doesn't own game dogs that doesn't mean they don't exist. :wink: :hearNoEvil:



There are APBTs outside the show world???? No freakin' way!!!
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Postby JCleve86 » February 27th, 2006, 5:37 pm

odnarb wrote:
Blitzkrieg Staffords wrote:I agree with most of what they say, but, just because he doesn't own game dogs that doesn't mean they don't exist. :wink: :hearNoEvil:



There are APBTs outside the show world???? No freakin' way!!!


LOL

And, in case you didn't know, show dogs do not have ANY faults ever. Nor are any show breeders who pump out litter after litter irresponsible. Or one would think if they visited PBP.
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Postby odnarb » February 27th, 2006, 5:45 pm

JCleve86 wrote:LOL

And, in case you didn't know, show dogs do not have ANY faults ever. Nor are any show breeders who pump out litter after litter irresponsible. Or one would think if they visited PBP.



:rolleyes2:

Like, WHATEVER!

EVERYBODY knows showdogs are perfect. What rock have YOU been living under?

And ribbons automatically make anything remotely bad go away. It makes a dog even more perfect, and it makes everything its owner/breeder does OK. Ribbons are like the Monopoly "Get Out Of Jail Free" cards. Blue ones are like pardons from the president. They make all your evils just honky dory!
Last edited by odnarb on February 27th, 2006, 5:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby cheekymunkee » February 27th, 2006, 5:48 pm

Now, now, be nice or PBP will take their message board & website down!!!
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Postby Karen » February 27th, 2006, 5:55 pm

cheekymunkee wrote:Now, now, be nice or PBP will take their message board & website down!!!


Promise?
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Postby JCleve86 » February 27th, 2006, 6:22 pm

Karen wrote:
cheekymunkee wrote:Now, now, be nice or PBP will take their message board & website down!!!


Promise?


Yeah no joke...this one, I agree with you on!!! Perhaps a renaming ceremony is in place: BYBpuppy.com

Well I guess I do have a little evil instigator in me, don't I.
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Postby cheekymunkee » February 27th, 2006, 6:24 pm

Oh I LOVE it!! Where else can you see breeders rip the snot out of each other on one forum & "cute puppy" each other on another, all on the same board? Big fun!!!
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Postby odnarb » February 27th, 2006, 6:26 pm

cheekymunkee wrote:Oh I LOVE it!! Where else can you see breeders rip the snot out of each other on one forum & "cute puppy" each other on another? Big fun!!!



On another forum? Hell, in the same THREAD!

I uploaded this emoticon so I can use it over there, and I use it a lot...

Image

...and I'm a freaking moderator :noWay:
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Postby Patch O' Pits » February 27th, 2006, 6:27 pm

Here was something I wrote up when recently someone posted this on a group I'm on...

What they posted....
>>> They argue if "we take out the gameness in a pit
>>>bull they will be a shell of a dog, that we used to
>>>know as a pit bull and we would have a totally
>>>different breed of dog".


My response:

Gameness in its original terms is the willingness to go on never quit or back down in the ring. It was applied to the blood sport ring that unfortunately still exists underground with some old timers but mostly it seems a bunch of new punks who are wanna be dogmen so to speak

There are few "so called" game bred dogs left under that original definition since fighting is illegal and thus, a dog’s parents can no longer legally be tested under that definition. It would have to be back farther in the heritage. Now that being said, they all somewhere in there line go back to dogs that were fought. Some of course have them closer up in their lines then others. Sad as it is it is part of the breed and where it came from.

Of course, there are horrible animal abusers who still are fighting dogs. I wish I knew away to make them stop. They claim they love their dogs and take care of them while they watch them bleed suffer and die or shoot them for not winning. That's not love that is just SICK. They live on truck tow chains and are kept looking 1/2 starved so called conditioned UUUGH

There needs to be a more modern term/definition. The dogs of today should the willingness, determination, and ability not to give up and work for their owner in LEGAL sports and activities such as but not limited to:
weight pull,
agility,
obedience,
tracking,
rally-o,
ScH,
SAR,
Therapy work
herding,
yes even performing and strutting around proudly in the show ring though not really work shows them off and their attitude and temperament
The drive and determination that made them great in the old days still makes them great now; it is just challenged and channeled to more appropriate things.

The amount of drive, persistence as well as the great love and dedication towards their owner should remain as strong as it ever was in the past. I guess you pretty much can say the “game” and rules have changed and so has the type of ring. The dogs however are still the same great dogs, but with for the most part more responsible people holding the lead. A dog should not fight to be proven in my eyes.
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Postby Romanwild » February 27th, 2006, 6:41 pm

Even in the fight world a truly "game" dog is one in a million.

I think there was more to his post. Can anyone look and see if he continued in that thread.

By the way, Dreyfus is blue and has 2 blue ribbons in the show ring so far. That does mean he is perfect. :bananaDance:

and the only reason he failed the cgc/tdi is because of his "gameness"!

:backRoll:
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Postby odnarb » February 27th, 2006, 6:46 pm

Romanwild wrote:By the way, Dreyfus is blue and has 2 blue ribbons in the show ring so far. That does mean he is perfect. :bananaDance:



NOW you are seeing the light! :clap:


and the only reason he failed the cgc/tdi is because of his "gameness"!

:backRoll:



Perhaps! Or they were jealous of his blueness? Who knows with the hatas? :|
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Postby Miakoda » February 27th, 2006, 6:53 pm

:jerry:
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Postby Romanwild » February 27th, 2006, 7:22 pm

Even in the fight world a truly "game" dog is one in a million.

I think there was more to his post. Can anyone look and see if he continued in that thread.

By the way, Dreyfus is blue and has 2 blue ribbons in the show ring so far. That does mean he is perfect. :bananaDance:

and the only reason he failed the cgc/tdi is because of his "gameness"!

:backRoll:
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Postby JCleve86 » February 27th, 2006, 7:27 pm

I don't think there was much more that was relevant. Most of the rest of it from there was essentially a pissing match with that other dude.
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