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Postby Patch O' Pits » February 25th, 2006, 1:00 pm

Oh forgot to mention you may also want to try training with toys even with the pulling issue, if he has toy drive it can be a HUGE help IMO.
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Postby luvmyangels » February 25th, 2006, 2:23 pm

I went to a working agility seminar today with Knuckles and he did very well. The trainer was using a clicker with her dog which I had never seen face to face before. I thought it was quite cool. I had spoken with the agility trainer and she said she knows someone she can refer me to for clicker training. I think this may be a better way to go for Knuckles.

Sorry if there was any confusion in my post. Thank you for everyone's feedback.
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Postby Maryellen » February 25th, 2006, 2:33 pm

maryann, i posted in training here a post called Mind Games.. it has clicker info on the links ..check it out
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Postby luvmyangels » February 25th, 2006, 2:36 pm

Maryellen wrote:maryann, i posted in training here a post called Mind Games.. it has clicker info on the links ..check it out


Yes I went there last night and got the information. In fact, I subscribed to the yahoo board that goes along with it. I e-mailed one of the trainers off the list of clicker trainers and am awaiting a response. But if the agility trainer can refer me to someone I will look into that avenue too.
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Postby Patch O' Pits » February 25th, 2006, 2:42 pm

luvmyangels wrote:I went to a working agility seminar today with Knuckles and he did very well. The trainer was using a clicker with her dog which I had never seen face to face before. I thought it was quite cool. I had spoken with the agility trainer and she said she knows someone she can refer me to for clicker training. I think this may be a better way to go for Knuckles.

Sorry if there was any confusion in my post. Thank you for everyone's feedback.

You'll have fun with it , I'm sure!

Just remeber it is all in the timing... practice your quick clicking heheh


I have clicking info on the site where my agility class is hosted and it is incorporated in the lessons

http://www.apbt.info
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Postby luvmyangels » February 25th, 2006, 6:48 pm

ellie@ny wrote:I'm sorry,but I dont get it!You can't do whatever you wan't with your dogs?

"Teddy my older dog would never tolerate that. Although he is dominant we have an imaginary line and neither of us try to cross it."

I think that's not cool HE has a "line" for you???Maybe I misundertanding this,I hope!But IMO they 're dogs first,and they have to do what we wan't from them. :|


Using the wording, "Although he is dominant we have an imaginary line and neither of us try to cross it" was not the best of ways to explain our relationship. But be rest assured I have an excellent and mutual respectful relationship with Teddy.
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Postby Maryellen » February 25th, 2006, 7:07 pm

while the alpha roll works with some dogs, it doesnt work with all dogs.. Teddy is a Chow mix. Chows are extremely dominant dogs, and you cant deal with a chow like you would a pit or a gsd or a rott or a dalmation.. i think that Ellie is tryiing to understand your relationship withyour dogs, but doesnt know that teddy is not a pit bull...

while dogs are dogs, there are some breeds that yes, you do have to have an understanding of the breed to own it.. chows are very dominant, stubborn do it their way or no way type of dogs.. they are highly independent, smart, and hard to train.

and yes, dogs should do what we want, however certain breeds are more prone to certain behaviors, and chows are one of them.. a gorgeous breed, but definitely not for everyone. maryann has had teddy for 7 years, and knows teddy very well. just like i would never alpha roll my gsd now that she is mature, maryann would not benefit from rolling teddy, as he would probably bite her severly.... as would my gsd if i tried to alpha roll her now... when she was under 2 years, yes i rolled her many times, and she NEVER gave in.... some dogs are more dominant then others, and the alpha roll is not to be used preferably with any dog, whether dominant or not, as you dont know what the response would be.. if i were to roll my gsd at this stage of her life at 5 years old, she would probably bite me and not submit.. so i wont push it with her physically.. i use mind over physical with her.. i too have an imaginary line with my gsd that we both have an understanding about.. yes , she is a dog,but she is a dominant dog that understands her boundaries with me, and me with her.. some dogs are just different then pit bulls..
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Postby msvette2u » February 25th, 2006, 7:29 pm

Well in my opinion, what you're describing with your dogs is a form of bullying them.
If it's an "alpha roll", here is what I've learned about that subject:

http://dogs.about.com/cs/basictraining/a/alpha_roll.htm

http://www.bogartsdaddy.com/bouvier/Tra ... oll_no.htm
(Quote from there: "Using physical force of any kind reduces your "rank." Only middle-ranked animals insecure in their place squabble.
To be "alpha," control the resources. I don't mean hokey stuff like not allowing dogs on beds or preceding them through doorways. I mean making resources contingent on behavior. Does the dog want to be fed. Great -- ask him to sit first. Does the dog want to go outside? Sit first. Dog want to greet people? Sit first. Want to play a game? Sit first. Or whatever. If you are proactive enough to control the things your dogs want, *you* are alpha by definition.
Train your dog. This is the dog-human equivalent of the "revoking of puppy license" phase in dog development. Children, women, elderly people, handicapped people -- all are capable of training a dog. Very few people are capable of physical domination.
Reward deferential behavior, rather than pushy behavior. I have two dogs. If one pushes in front of the other, the other gets the attention, the food, whatever the first dog wanted. The first dog to sit gets treated. Pulling on lead goes nowhere. Doors don't open until dogs are seated and I say they may go out. Reward pushy, and you get pushy."



NILIF is a much MUCH better (and non bullying) way to teach a dog who is "boss", as Charles said elsewhere, the alpha controls the resources.
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Postby msvette2u » February 25th, 2006, 7:31 pm

I don't know why this looks like this. ::brainfart::
Last edited by msvette2u on February 25th, 2006, 9:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby ellie@ny » February 25th, 2006, 9:26 pm

Thanks Maryellen,yes I tought Teddy is a Pittie....And we all know that behavior won't be too good for the breed....I'm glad It's cleared! :D
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Postby Maryellen » February 25th, 2006, 9:26 pm

your welcome!!:):):)
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Postby luvmyangels » February 26th, 2006, 12:45 am

msvette2u wrote:Well in my opinion, what you're describing with your dogs is a form of bullying them.
If it's an "alpha roll", here is what I've learned about that subject:

http://dogs.about.com/cs/basictraining/a/alpha_roll.htm

http://www.bogartsdaddy.com/bouvier/Tra ... oll_no.htm
(Quote from there: "Using physical force of any kind reduces your "rank." Only middle-ranked animals insecure in their place squabble.
To be "alpha," control the resources. I don't mean hokey stuff like not allowing dogs on beds or preceding them through doorways. I mean making resources contingent on behavior. Does the dog want to be fed. Great -- ask him to sit first. Does the dog want to go outside? Sit first. Dog want to greet people? Sit first. Want to play a game? Sit first. Or whatever. If you are proactive enough to control the things your dogs want, *you* are alpha by definition.
Train your dog. This is the dog-human equivalent of the "revoking of puppy license" phase in dog development. Children, women, elderly people, handicapped people -- all are capable of training a dog. Very few people are capable of physical domination.
Reward deferential behavior, rather than pushy behavior. I have two dogs. If one pushes in front of the other, the other gets the attention, the food, whatever the first dog wanted. The first dog to sit gets treated. Pulling on lead goes nowhere. Doors don't open until dogs are seated and I say they may go out. Reward pushy, and you get pushy."



NILIF is a much MUCH better (and non bullying) way to teach a dog who is "boss", as Charles said elsewhere, the alpha controls the resources.


"What is an Alpha Roll?

An Alpha Roll is the act of flipping your dog onto his back, and holding his throat. Supposedly this will teach him that YOU are Alpha, and he will respect you for this.
Wrong."

Above was quoted out of the article you provided. This is by no means what I do with my older dog. This is a roll he chose to take with the other dogs in the house. To me that would be mistreatment to an animal and that is not what I am about.

I do not use any means of taking control away from him nor would I ever raise a hand to any of my dogs. He has a very strong personality and when I trained him with a trainer (since I did not know what I was doing when I got Teddy) he was trained in obedience. This obedience was not one where you use force. Why would I ever hit a dog when they have no clue what they have done 2 seconds before??

I am finding that each dogs personality is different. With Knuckles I am leaning more towards clicker training because I think it would be a better outlet than obedience. When we did obedience that is when his mange started to show up. Which to me means it was too stressful for him (I think the trainer is a little too stern for a dog that has a sensitive nature). Although I did try to make it fun.

Am I explaining myself wrong with regards to training? I am finding maybe there is something I don't know because I feel lost with how I am explaining stuff and the responses I am getting back.
I am "The Rat Queen".

Have a great day!! :)

Mary Ann & The Furry Bunch:
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The Rattie Bunch: Girls: Noodle & Raisin Boys: Gus, Melvin, Oliver, & Toby
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Postby msvette2u » February 26th, 2006, 1:17 am

Nooo it wasn't you I posted that for...not to worry!
I never thought you did that with your animals...
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Postby cheekymunkee » February 26th, 2006, 2:12 am

It doesn't sound to me like Ellie is using the alpha roll either. She is forcing the dog into a down & making him hold it, an alpha roll is flipping the dog onto it's back so that if feels vunerable. Two different approaches IMO.
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Postby ellie@ny » February 26th, 2006, 8:03 am

msvette2u wrote:Nooo it wasn't you I posted that for...not to worry!
I never thought you did that with your animals...


Honey,if you know better what's going on in my house...go for it!
But about the bed situation...you right I'm the alfa!Cause I tell them where to sleep....Maya sleeps at my head since I have her,and Nico-babe can sleep at my feet...the only problem is the room is too hot for him,so he usually go on the floor..With the food,I'm the alfa again,just like yesterday when they didn't want to eat,I force them to eat their food,with something else...sometime the beef liver helps,sometime tunafish,sourcream,you name it!Yeah I'm a bad momma....

And you know what if that alfa-thing works for somebody,why not???It's better then not training your animals!
On the first pic you can see,when Maya was a pup,and she was tortured sleeping with her teddy bear(btw Teddy died after another sleepover... ;),then when she fell a sleep eating her bully stick...The last pic they have been tortured to go on my bed and have their bully stick again....Yeahhhhh...shame on me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :!:

Image

Image

Image
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Postby luvmyangels » February 26th, 2006, 12:25 pm

I am so sorry that my post has caused conflict. As Martin Lawrence (I think he was the one to say that) would say, "Can we all just get along?"

Thank you to everyone that has shared their views.
I am "The Rat Queen".

Have a great day!! :)

Mary Ann & The Furry Bunch:
Cookie & Knuckles
Rabbit: Butterscotch
The Rattie Bunch: Girls: Noodle & Raisin Boys: Gus, Melvin, Oliver, & Toby
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Postby Maryellen » February 26th, 2006, 3:44 pm

oh ok, i think i understand now.. ellie you just put them in a down right?? you didnt do the alpha roll correct?? ok, i understand now.. maryann what ellie is saying is she helped her male dog into a down so that he would understand she is boss, she didnt flip him on his back and hold him there... i think we can all say AAAAHHH... this was a good discussion though, by everyone. i think that these type of discussions are great as we can all share our training tools that we use with each other.. i dont see any harm done here.
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Postby cheekymunkee » February 26th, 2006, 3:48 pm

That is what she is saying maryellen. I have done that myself with all of my dogs, no harm, no foul. I have never ( and will never) done an alpha roll on any dog. But I see nothing wrong with the "look ...you will do what I want you to do whether you like it or not" approach if that is what it takes. And like Ellie, it usually only takes once or twice for them to get the picture.
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Postby cheekymunkee » February 26th, 2006, 3:50 pm

luvmyangels wrote:I am so sorry that my post has caused conflict. As Martin Lawrence (I think he was the one to say that) would say, "Can we all just get along?"

Thank you to everyone that has shared their views.


That was Rodney King. :wink:
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Postby Maryellen » February 26th, 2006, 4:10 pm

i have done that too... makes alot of sense now... dont worry maryann, this was a good discussion!!
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