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Postby luvmyangels » February 24th, 2006, 9:30 pm

Hi! As some of you may know I got Knuckles as a foster when he was 4 weeks old and very sickly. We went through a lot and were lucky to come through healthy and we decided to make him a part of our family(except for demodectic mange not too long ago). As of late he has lost his noodle and forgotten a lot of his training. Which most likely is due to me going away on vacation. Well to make a long story short every time I try something different with him he goes into submissive mode and pee's all over the place. Case in point, last night I finally decided to put him on a prong collar due to his excessive pulling which is killing my back. Please note I have tried a nylon choke which does nothing and I also have had prong experience with my older dog. I tried the prong prior to going to agility class which then through him off during the class. He urinated not once but twice in class and this is after I walked him prior to class (he has been tested for urinary problems and there aren't any). Unlike my other two dogs I have to make training SUPER DUPER FUN and reinforce every step of the way to make sure he does not melt on me. According to my training book he is going through both the Flight Instinct Period and Second Fear Imprint Period. I do see some concerns with his behavior and because we do not have a history except for the fact that he was confiscated during a drug raid I am concerned about genetics.

Please tell me what you think.
I am "The Rat Queen".

Have a great day!! :)

Mary Ann & The Furry Bunch:
Cookie & Knuckles
Rabbit: Butterscotch
The Rattie Bunch: Girls: Noodle & Raisin Boys: Gus, Melvin, Oliver, & Toby
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Postby Romanwild » February 24th, 2006, 10:36 pm

Sounds like you have it figured out already. He takes a softer touch. :|

Work on his confidence.
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Postby Maryellen » February 24th, 2006, 10:42 pm

since you were away from him for vacation. is there any possibility that he was treated rough while you were gone?? it sounds like he is a super soft dog, yet i am wondering if maybe he was treated a little rough while you were away... i would start back at the beginning of training, and work from there..
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Postby Maryellen » February 24th, 2006, 10:43 pm

instead of the prong, try a martingale collar.. if he is that soft a martingale might be better... and ask the babysitter how they treated him while you were away, did they yell at him? raise their hand to him?? if he was ok before you went on vacation and now regressing since you came back its possible he was treated rough.
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Postby luvmyangels » February 24th, 2006, 10:49 pm

Romanwild wrote:Sounds like you have it figured out already. He takes a softer touch. :|

Work on his confidence.


I am trying so hard and I am so not used to having a dog with this personality. When I trained my older dog who is a Lab/Chow Mix I had to be stern along with being consistent with him because he has a strong personality. He is the Alpha in my house but sometimes needs to have me remind him who the pack leader is. Cookie has a strong personality too.

Do you have any other ideas on how to work on his confidence besides constantly reinforcing the positives???
I am "The Rat Queen".

Have a great day!! :)

Mary Ann & The Furry Bunch:
Cookie & Knuckles
Rabbit: Butterscotch
The Rattie Bunch: Girls: Noodle & Raisin Boys: Gus, Melvin, Oliver, & Toby
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Postby Maryellen » February 24th, 2006, 10:52 pm

maybe try marker or clicker training? maybe try agility without the prong??
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Postby luvmyangels » February 24th, 2006, 11:02 pm

Maryellen wrote:instead of the prong, try a martingale collar.. if he is that soft a martingale might be better... and ask the babysitter how they treated him while you were away, did they yell at him? raise their hand to him?? if he was ok before you went on vacation and now regressing since you came back its possible he was treated rough.


I will have to look up a Martingale collar since I have never heard of one before. A lot of what the babysitter was doing was destroying my training. He allowed him on the couch which I do not allow and also allowed him to sit at the kitchen table. I had three different people coming in while I was gone. My brother was watching them overnight and on the weekends and my neighbors were letting them out during the weekdays. I would hope no one would raise their hands to my dogs since they know I do not believe in that.

In fact, last night while I was in agility class someone said to me after watching Knuckles pee on the floor for the 2nd time, "If that were my dog I would beat the piss out of him. Why are you not correcting him." My response was, "That was the way of thought many years ago. The honest truth is that he does not remember what he did two seconds ago why would I do that to my dog."
I am "The Rat Queen".

Have a great day!! :)

Mary Ann & The Furry Bunch:
Cookie & Knuckles
Rabbit: Butterscotch
The Rattie Bunch: Girls: Noodle & Raisin Boys: Gus, Melvin, Oliver, & Toby
luvmyangels
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Posts: 3449
Location: NY

Postby luvmyangels » February 24th, 2006, 11:07 pm

Maryellen wrote:maybe try marker or clicker training? maybe try agility without the prong??


I have yet to use the prong during agility training (I have either been on the nylon choke or a flat buckle). Although the agility trainer has been watching his pulling me and asked when I was going to see a chiropractor. But she thought it would be a good idea about bringing the prong to the agility seminar I am going to tomorrow where we are suppose to be a working team.

Clicker training has been mentioned to me by Therese (probably by you too) but I had been working with the trainer I was working with for years. I think I may need to find a different approach. I will do some research to find a good trainer on the island that does either marker or clicker training.
I am "The Rat Queen".

Have a great day!! :)

Mary Ann & The Furry Bunch:
Cookie & Knuckles
Rabbit: Butterscotch
The Rattie Bunch: Girls: Noodle & Raisin Boys: Gus, Melvin, Oliver, & Toby
luvmyangels
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Posts: 3449
Location: NY

Postby Maryellen » February 24th, 2006, 11:13 pm

do not coddle him or feel sorry for him. treat him as a dog and slowly work back up to where you were before you went on vacation.. coddling him will just make it worse.. i posted in training Mind Games.. it has clicker links there...

a martingale collar is like a choker collar and a regular collar combined...
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Postby luvmyangels » February 24th, 2006, 11:27 pm

Maryellen wrote:do not coddle him or feel sorry for him. treat him as a dog and slowly work back up to where you were before you went on vacation.. coddling him will just make it worse.. i posted in training Mind Games.. it has clicker links there...

a martingale collar is like a choker collar and a regular collar combined...


Believe me I am really trying not to coddle him and at the same time trying not to lose my patience. It has become really embarrassing when he pees in class all the time. I just turn red because everyone stares at me.

I looked up the Martingale Collar and it looks like the same set up as a prong less the prongs.
I am "The Rat Queen".

Have a great day!! :)

Mary Ann & The Furry Bunch:
Cookie & Knuckles
Rabbit: Butterscotch
The Rattie Bunch: Girls: Noodle & Raisin Boys: Gus, Melvin, Oliver, & Toby
luvmyangels
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Posts: 3449
Location: NY

Postby ellie@ny » February 24th, 2006, 11:40 pm

Someone told me,when their male behaves dominant,they used to grab the dog push him down to the ground,and hold him there for a good 10 min.No talk,no hitting just don't let him stand up,just hold him at his neck and back.He just have to feel he has no controll !You can do that as a daily routine,just hold him down every day for 15 min,when he's not expecting that,and after he will be happy to do anything for you these ...That won't help on the heeling....But can help to cut down his bossy temperament.Are you using food with him,when you train him?That helps a lot!
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Postby luvmyangels » February 25th, 2006, 12:00 am

ellie@ny wrote:Someone told me,when their male behaves dominant,they used to grab the dog push him down to the ground,and hold him there for a good 10 min.No talk,no hitting just don't let him stand up,just hold him at his neck and back.He just have to feel he has no controll !You can do that as a daily routine,just hold him down every day for 15 min,when he's not expecting that,and after he will be happy to do anything for you these ...That won't help on the heeling....But can help to cut down his bossy temperament.Are you using food with him,when you train him?That helps a lot!


Teddy my older dog would never tolerate that. Although he is dominant we have an imaginary line and neither of us try to cross it. Again there are times where he will test me but I usually have to take a step back and look at why we got to that point and try to fix what went wrong. We need to remind one another. We have a lot of respect for one another. But we sometimes need correcting. That goes for me too.

Knuckles on the other hand is not dominant at all, in fact he is quite submissive. The pulling is because he just loves everyone and wants to make friends but in the process is killing my back.
I am "The Rat Queen".

Have a great day!! :)

Mary Ann & The Furry Bunch:
Cookie & Knuckles
Rabbit: Butterscotch
The Rattie Bunch: Girls: Noodle & Raisin Boys: Gus, Melvin, Oliver, & Toby
luvmyangels
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Posts: 3449
Location: NY

Postby ellie@ny » February 25th, 2006, 12:25 am

I'm sorry,but I dont get it!You can't do whatever you wan't with your dogs?

"Teddy my older dog would never tolerate that. Although he is dominant we have an imaginary line and neither of us try to cross it."

I think that's not cool HE has a "line" for you???Maybe I misundertanding this,I hope!But IMO they 're dogs first,and they have to do what we wan't from them. :|
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Postby Maryellen » February 25th, 2006, 9:04 am

do NOT do this with knuckles.. he is too soft a dog for this...

ellie- knuckles is tooo soft for this kind of behavior from maryann.. unfortunately, when she went away the people who watched him threw all her training out the window and screwed him up a bit...


i dont suggest doing this routine to any dog.
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Postby ellie@ny » February 25th, 2006, 9:38 am

Sorry,I did not know her dogs history,and I said this was for dominant dogs!I had to do this with my male like two times,when he coudn't understood the NO in a situation.And of course every dog is different,and first,you have to know your dog!But that's still not cool if a dog dominant with the owner IMO.
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Postby msvette2u » February 25th, 2006, 11:34 am

ellie@ny wrote:Sorry,I did not know her dogs history,and I said this was for dominant dogs!I had to do this with my male like two times,when he coudn't understood the NO in a situation.And of course every dog is different,and first,you have to know your dog!But that's still not cool if a dog dominant with the owner IMO.


If you read the previous posts the dog has a problem with SUBMISSIVE URINATION, not dominance!! You can NEVER treat a dog with submissive urination this way!! She gave her dogs history briefly in her first post.
You have to totally ignore the peeing. Do NOT react, either good or bad.
I'd walk away from it and clean it up after the dog is gone from that immediate area.
Our oldest German Shepherd had submissive urination issues when we first got him and we worked through it with him which took about 8mos.
You cannot raise your voice at him, or be very gruff or anything of that nature. AT ALL. Ever!
Our dachshund whom we've had for about a year and a half, came to us with submissive urination. You can't even reach over and pet him without him coming to you first or he'll pee. Again...ignoring it, while difficult at times, is the key to fixing the problem.
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Postby msvette2u » February 25th, 2006, 11:35 am

Maryellen wrote:i dont suggest doing this routine to any dog.

I sure wouldn't. You're a setup for a bite. Then the dog will be blamed for being "dominant". :rolleyes2:
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Postby msvette2u » February 25th, 2006, 11:39 am

ellie@ny wrote:Someone told me,

I'd love to meet that "someone"...
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Postby Patch O' Pits » February 25th, 2006, 12:08 pm

I feel for you. Apache was a submissive/excited pee pup until she was about a year old ever time someone would come in the house. She however was not handler soft. Just a pee pee pup LOL. So I didn't have your particular issue with her. It is best to ignore any type of submissive uriation, clean it up like nothing happened. Hopefully he'll grow out of it as most do

Many APBTs are more handler soft than other breeds IMO especially when compared to chows or GSDs

I do not believe in the one size fits all training that many trainers seem to use. I actually had a huge debate on another forum because some were suggessting that all dogs could be trained using the exactly the same methods. Well in some instances the method may not change much but approaches and little things surely do.

LOL One of the places when I train the trainer has pretty much learned that I'm going to work my dog the way I see fit and not always use what he is saying LOL. So if you are comfortable talking to the trainer about you doing other things in class you may or may not be able to stick with the place you are going to now.

I like to play around with the clicker, but it is not the only way nor my first choice... it pretty uch can be done with any sound or tone of voice exactly like the clicker is used... also you can just make the clicking sound yourself as some find the toll awkard to hold and use. Some [people also chose to cue with their breathing.

There really is so much you can do

with a dog though that is too handler sensative I probably would keep things as positive as I ould and try to build confidence before adding corrections.

with pulling it often helps to stop dead and just stand there and or switch directions every time the dog pulls and get his attention and treat and praise.

I don't know if that helps any

While doing agility it is safer not to have a correction collar on while he runs but if you need to a martingale or prong is safer than a regular choke.

Another thing is if the ollar gets caught and corrects an overly sensative dog while he is doing agility it may create an adverse affect

Just some stuff to think about
Last edited by Patch O' Pits on February 25th, 2006, 1:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby ellie@ny » February 25th, 2006, 12:46 pm

Very good post Patch O' Pits! :)
This one has to be repeat!: "I do not believe in the one size fits all training that many trainers seem to use." This is so true!!!

To msvette2u, you said :You're a setup for a bite. -if you're doing that exercise with your OWN dog?For lay down your OWN dog and hold him???You can't be serious!
And that "someone" has a couple of Great Swiss mountain dogs,she does conformation,carting,obedience with her dogs...
And I say again,last time,when did I said this exercise is for knuckles???!!!Never!
I guess we misunderstood something,because too many dogs are involed in this post now!I said this she can use when a dog do something dominant,and not paying attention to her at all.

For the urinating ,I won't do anythig too,just the clean up :)
I see that's happening in my class a lot,in conf. and obi.Just be sure before you go inside to training,let your dog do his "business",because some people just come in without that and that's not good.
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