as promised, brittany hill round 2

[RedChrome]

Hi, I'm getting in on this a little late. I do Schutzhund with Red and she had a GOOD grasp of what "drop it" or "AUS"(out) was BEFORE we ever put her on a puppy line. That's the way I feel she should be trained that's not to say that EVERY dog should be trained the same way. When I was training Hobie, he had no Good grasp of obedience but was taught it later. To me it depends on the individual dog on how you train.

Red is a VERY DRIVEY dog but she has a VERY good grasp of obedience. That makes owning her easier. She was taught to do a B&H while sitting, no flying B&H's although that's what she'd prefer. LOL I know a few people in my schutzhund group use prongs on their dogs while doing B&H's as well as bitework.

I just feel that EVERY dog HAS to be trained differently. No 2 dogs are exactly the same. However, I didn't really see a B&H in those pics, Although he has a very nice bite.

[brooksybrooks1]

tre has known both "out" and "leave it" since long before i ever even decided to do sch or any sport with him. still, while i feel like that has given me an advantage in perhaps teaching him the out on the sleeve quicker, it's not a completely smooth transition, as is to be expected.

you know, the more i think about the prong the more i realize that i never really give him any corrections on it during protection! i think it's mostly peace of mind, i don't know if you can tell in those pictures but i'm pretty little, and he's a big strong man! while i do trust him, i know that he is a beginner as well, and with him wearing it i know that if worse comes to worst i have the ability to control him moreso than if he weren't wearing it, however mostly i just use it to get his attention and focus back on me from time to time. most people in my club have their dogs wear them, but pretty much use them the same way.

like i said, the pictures are mislabeled and better explained in the "brag" thread, these are the reward bites he got for doing the b&h.

[RedChrome]

Some dogs take better to it than others. The out is what I am talking about. Red doesn't have a "Perfect" out yet but we just started fall of 2005. She is a little hard-headed but usaully outs after being told 2x. Most of the time she outs the first time. She is still young and learning as am I. You can never know too much about training dogs. Especially sport dogs. Everyoen has their own method that works for them. Mine probably differ from yours and yours probably differs from some of your friends. So on and so forth.

He looks solid though and has a really nice bite.

[DemoDick]

Here's a couple B&H videos I posted a while back. The dog has performed the exercise about a half dozen times across three or four training sessions and these were the first two sends of the day.

He did fully understand the basic components of the exercise as we did it that day-sit, speak, bite, out and recall.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5xg3wJpOX2c
(dirty initial bite)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WQwNSX2u2Cg

Demo Dick

[brooksybrooks1]

cool, thanks. tre is kinda funny with his outs right now because he knows that when he hears out he should let go and start to bark, but he can't quite get himself to let go of it right away, so he'll bark and hold it at the same time for a few seconds. what a weirdo.

[Romanwild]

What if something like this happened to them? Would you still be so against teaching a dog to bite people if it kept them safe?

When and where did I say that I was against protection work?

I have an issue with teaching a dog to bite prior to completing very very solid obedience work. That's all.

I have no problem with you owning a dog whose job it is to protect you. I don't care if you own guns, knives and samurai swords.

If I needed a dog to protect me I would want it to bite when I want it to bite. I wouldn't want it to when it thinks it should. Especially if it's a Pit Bull.

A dog that is trained in PP will bite if you don't tell him to if the situation is right.

PP dogs can make the distinction.

So you're really sure, extremely confident and can guarantee that you're dogs will always be able to make the right decision and can tell when it's appropriate to bite?

I don't believe so. It's a dog. An animal. I believe that and anyone else that feels this way is wrong and risking a bad situation more then they know.

However, that doesn't mean I can't take Jue, or Asja, or Dru, or Nisha out somewhere and have them be in a social situation (okay, Jue isn't social, per se, but he won't just bite someone if we're out).

For example, I can take any one of those dogs out somewhere, and not have them bite.

How do you know for sure? You've trained them to bite and make the decision as to when. They're dogs and they can make mistakes just like humans. Would you disagree?

Do you have your dogs off leash in public or are they always leashed?

I truly do not have a problem with PP, Sport or whatever.

[Romanwild]

So a dog with drive can have too much obedience and inhibition?

And again... bite inhibition is the last thing that a protection dog needs. Why exactly would you want a dog that is trained to protect to stop biting when the person he is biting reacts in a negative manner?

Bite inhibition is a dog not biting.

iinhibition, suppression
(psychology) the conscious exclusion of unacceptable thoughts or desires

IMO I don't like a dog that is constantly sizing up people and scenarios to decide whether or not he should bite them. I just feel a protection dog should bite only when they are commanded to.

This leads me to Katies post which I will reply to later tonight. As well as the others. Back to work for me!

But, what if you are gagged or somehow disabled & not ABLE to give voice or an other commands? What if you are alseep & someone enters your home with the intent to do you harm? Now, as I have stated I know NOTHING about bite work other than what I have read & seen here but I do know there are times when the handler will not always be able to give commands IRL.

Where is the dog while I'm being tied up and gagged?

If I'm sleeping and my PP dog isn't in his crate then I would assume he would wake me up prior to the getting me. Right?

[cheekymunkee]

What if it's a ninja?

[Romanwild]

In many threads you have referred to "bite inhibition" as a dog's unwillingness to bite someone; due to training or instinct. Like when a dog puts it's teeth on you and you yelp and stop playing with that dog. I'll find a quote somewhere. I've heard it from you and numerous people. Ruby and Connor absolutely have it or I would be torn to shread from playing with them. I would assume that Riggs does as well, but he does not play that way.

So Connor and Riggs who both do bite work have bite inhibition? I thought that wasn't a good thing.

A bitework dog letting go of someone because they make a noise is completely useless. Decoys are supposed to yell, to try to make the dog release the grip.

There is a difference in a dog being inhibited to bite without command, and being inhibited in the bite, because of noise or other distractions.

Do dogs sometimes bite in error? Absolutely. Dogs make mistakes. They happen. It's awful when they happen, but the reality of the dog world is that dogs have teeth and sometimes they do something that is completely unexpected and completely contrary to their training.

I agree. That's my point exactly. Thank you.

Even dogs trained only for sport and only to bite equipment can one day misinterpret someone actions. Blaming a trainer, handler, the dog or even the training itself is short sighted.

When did I do that? I don't believe I am suffering from short sightedness, actually the opposite. My opinion is that people who do this kind of work need to consider what it is they are asking their dogs to do and the ramifications of a mistake especially if they are utilizing a Pit Bull. I refer to your above reply concerning accidents.

They aren't loose canons, dangerous or anything else.

Once again Michelle, where in this thread did I say that?

There is a HUGE difference between a bite and an attack. Bites can be accidental, and what the dog does after that bite says a lot about that dog. An attack is completely different, it's meant to do harm, it includes repeated bites or a complete refusal to let go.

again.....

With only two exceptions, EVERY event I have been to in the past three years (I figured it out, it's around 10) has had a bite, an attempted bite, a dog fight or an attempted dog fight at it. At AKC or UKC shows it is QUICKLY covered up, as any aggression can get you kicked out of the show or even out of the UKC or AKC completely. That does not mean it doesn't happen. I watched two Aussies go after each other at the agility trial that both of us were at last spring. The handlers happened to have leashes that were too short, and neither of them were paying close attention. It didn't go any farther than noise, but that doesn't mean it didn't happen.

Not once have I referred to anything dealing with DA. I think I'm a little familiar with DA and it's common appearance in the dog world. Thanks anyway.

[Romanwild]

What if it's a ninja?

If you have a ninja problem then yes, teach your dog to bite whenever they think they should. Ninjas are pesky.

[Romanwild]

Quote:

IMO I don't like a dog that is constantly sizing up people and scenarios to decide whether or not he should bite them. I just feel a protection dog should bite only when they are commanded to.

Guess what, Charles? If Greg our I has one of our dogs out somewhere, they're not sizing people up. They're focus is where it should be: on us.

Great, sounds like you have control. But at the same time you're telling me that they are put in the position to respond to a situation without referring to you even if you're there to give the command. Right?

Bite work DOES NOT EQUAL instability.

Never said that. Don't think it either. In fact it's often a sign of stability when a dog can do that kind of work. I don't know where you got the impression that I thought that way.

[mnp13]

In many threads you have referred to "bite inhibition" as a dog's unwillingness to bite someone; due to training or instinct. Like when a dog puts it's teeth on you and you yelp and stop playing with that dog. I'll find a quote somewhere. I've heard it from you and numerous people. Ruby and Connor absolutely have it or I would be torn to shread from playing with them. I would assume that Riggs does as well, but he does not play that way.

So Connor and Riggs who both do bite work have bite inhibition? I thought that wasn't a good thing.

What's there is there. It wasn't taught, enhanced or otherwise encouraged. My point was, it is not necessary and in some ways could be counter productive if it was being "taught".

I re-read my earlier posts, I didn't express what I meant very well.

[luvmypitties]

I love the pictures! And I will say I love Jue too! He looks like a cool dog although not one I would mess with..hehe! I would not want to look at Jue if he was jumping and barking like that in my face... I would be checking my drawers...

And I am guessing Rusty was the pitbull that Greg was telling me about when I met you guys huh? (oh and that question was for Katrina so i am not confusing anyone)

[brooksybrooks1]

romanwild, i think that your opinions are due to a lack of experience and an unwillingness to learn. I think that if you were more open minded and also willing to see another side of it you would be able to learn a lot more. You are looking for people to say something that you can construe as bad about protection work, and although you claim you have nothing against it, i don't really believe you at all. your unwillingness to see anything other than your predetermined idea really keeps you from seeing a lot of the good things about it or even the basic tenents of protection training, and it's really unfortunate.
i think you bring up valid points, but then when people try to educate you about them you don't learn, but instead just try tofind some small inconsistency in their argument that is irrelevant or obviously just a wording error. i really think that if you knew what you were talking about you would know that protection training actually makes a SAFER dog. any dog canmake a mistake and bite someone, protection training reduces this risk, imo, by teaching the dog WHEN to bite, they aren't going to be as surprised by a situation, and instead be much more calculated than a dog with no pp training or bitework.
you need to read and speak to a lot more trainers and watch dogs that are very experienced. i think it would silence a lot of your thoughts.

[brooksybrooks1]

and i think that the reason people think that you think bitework causes instability is because all your arguments imply that it makes the dog more likely to have a "biting" accident or be dangerous. that's pretty clear.

[katiek0417]

Do you have your dogs off leash in public or are they always leashed?

Actually, they HAVE been off-leash often in public. We tell them to "fulligan" (heel) and they do. And they "attention heel," so they look at us while they're doing so. This past weekend is the perfect example. Even Jue was off-leash, running around at times...when we would call him, he'd come running back to us....there were people standing around talking at the time....right where he was....

[katiek0417]

I love the pictures! And I will say I love Jue too! He looks like a cool dog although not one I would mess with..hehe! I would not want to look at Jue if he was jumping and barking like that in my face... I would be checking my drawers...

And I am guessing Rusty was the pitbull that Greg was telling me about when I met you guys huh? (oh and that question was for Katrina so i am not confusing anyone)

Jue is an AWESOME dog. I absolutely love him....it's amazing to think a dog like that will sleep in the bed with me when Greg is out of town....He actually loves attention from the people he likes...

And, yes, Rusty was the pit that Greg was telling you about. He was Greg's first competition dog. It's sad, b/c if Greg still had him, he'd be our house pet, PP dog, and I'd probably also be preparing to show him in the PSA Level 2's this year!!!

Oh, and Brooksybrooks, everything you said your posts: I applaud you. You said my thoughts exactly!!!! Well done!!!!

[brooksybrooks1]

oh thank you!

[Romanwild]

romanwild, i think that your opinions are due to a lack of experience and an unwillingness to learn. I think that if you were more open minded and also willing to see another side of it you would be able to learn a lot more. You are looking for people to say something that you can construe as bad about protection work, and although you claim you have nothing against it, i don't really believe you at all. your unwillingness to see anything other than your predetermined idea really keeps you from seeing a lot of the good things about it or even the basic tenents of protection training, and it's really unfortunate.
i think you bring up valid points, but then when people try to educate you about them you don't learn, but instead just try tofind some small inconsistency in their argument that is irrelevant or obviously just a wording error. i really think that if you knew what you were talking about you would know that protection training actually makes a SAFER dog. any dog canmake a mistake and bite someone, protection training reduces this risk, imo, by teaching the dog WHEN to bite, they aren't going to be as surprised by a situation, and instead be much more calculated than a dog with no pp training or bitework.
you need to read and speak to a lot more trainers and watch dogs that are very experienced. i think it would silence a lot of your thoughts.

Only one opinion I have put forth in this thread is that I do not like a bite work dog to make their own decisions and that bitework should come after OB. Especially if it's a Pit Bull. That's all.

You're trying to imply that I don't know what I'm talking about, is lame. If you don't agree then argue your point. Bottom line is that it's a difference of opinion. I have mine and I have them for my reasons. If people want to teach their dogs, especially Pit Bulls, to bite when they think they should then go ahead. I'm not proposing a ban on that kind of training. IMO a lot of bitework people are cavalier about having a dog that can decide when it's appropriate to bite. They are overly confident of their dogs level of obedience and should be a more careful.

A dog is a tool to be used by the handler. Forgive the use of a gun analogy but when you have a dog that is bitework trained and independent it's like having a gun that can pull it's own trigger.

[Romanwild]

Do you have your dogs off leash in public or are they always leashed?

Actually, they HAVE been off-leash often in public. We tell them to "fulligan" (heel) and they do. And they "attention heel," so they look at us while they're doing so. This past weekend is the perfect example. Even Jue was off-leash, running around at times...when we would call him, he'd come running back to us....there were people standing around talking at the time....right where he was....

So there has never been a time when they don't heel or come when called?