as promised, brittany hill round 2

Weight pull, Protection, Agility, Flyball... you name it!

Postby mnp13 » March 8th, 2007, 1:57 pm

On March 08 2007, 12:53, Big_Ant wrote:
On 03/08/2007 9:39 AM, brooksybrooks1 wrote:anthony: if you have never trained bite work then why do you pose your whole response as though you are an authority on it? you have to have input from several different types of training, watched it, read about it, etc before you can talk like this. maybe your comments would have resulted in less of an uproar if you would have kept in mind that these should be questions, i feel like greg and demodick and others have done a pretty good job of explaining things to you, people who have a lot of authority, and yet you still act like with your zero experience your opinion weighs just as heavily if not more than theirs.

Now where in the world did you get the idea that I have not trained bite work before??? You are getting me confused with some of the things that Charles said.

i'm even more annoyed that i'm getting attacked by someone who has little to no experience in it and is in no position to be telling people who have experience how to do it.

Still lost on where you are getting this. I'm definitely not on Greg's level, but I'm definitely not inexperienced.

- Anthony


Anthony, you may not have seen her respose right above yours, as it was posted only 2 minutes before yours went up. She realized that she put the wrong name in her post.

Nelson, Greg and Katrina, thank you for your posts!!!
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Postby Nelson » March 8th, 2007, 2:12 pm

I just wanted to add that it does depend on the dog as well.
- Anthony


This was also addressed in my post.

Nelson, Greg and Katrina, thank you for your posts!!!


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Postby Romanwild » March 8th, 2007, 3:16 pm

On March 08 2007, mnp13 wrote:
So a dog with drive can have too much obedience and inhibition?


And again... bite inhibition is the last thing that a protection dog needs. Why exactly would you want a dog that is trained to protect to stop biting when the person he is biting reacts in a negative manner?

Bite inhibition is a dog not biting.


iinhibition, suppression
(psychology) the conscious exclusion of unacceptable thoughts or desires


IMO I don't like a dog that is constantly sizing up people and scenarios to decide whether or not he should bite them. I just feel a protection dog should bite only when they are commanded to. :|

This leads me to Katies post which I will reply to later tonight. As well as the others. :D Back to work for me!
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Postby cheekymunkee » March 8th, 2007, 3:21 pm

On March 08 2007, 1:16 PM, Romanwild wrote:
On March 08 2007, mnp13 wrote:
So a dog with drive can have too much obedience and inhibition?


And again... bite inhibition is the last thing that a protection dog needs. Why exactly would you want a dog that is trained to protect to stop biting when the person he is biting reacts in a negative manner?

Bite inhibition is a dog not biting.


iinhibition, suppression
(psychology) the conscious exclusion of unacceptable thoughts or desires


IMO I don't like a dog that is constantly sizing up people and scenarios to decide whether or not he should bite them. I just feel a protection dog should bite only when they are commanded to. :|

This leads me to Katies post which I will reply to later tonight. As well as the others. :D Back to work for me!


But, what if you are gagged or somehow disabled & not ABLE to give voice or an other commands? What if you are alseep & someone enters your home with the intent to do you harm? Now, as I have stated I know NOTHING about bite work other than what I have read & seen here but I do know there are times when the handler will not always be able to give commands IRL.
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Postby mnp13 » March 8th, 2007, 3:34 pm

In many threads you have referred to "bite inhibition" as a dog's unwillingness to bite someone; due to training or instinct. Like when a dog puts it's teeth on you and you yelp and stop playing with that dog. I'll find a quote somewhere. I've heard it from you and numerous people. Ruby and Connor absolutely have it or I would be torn to shread from playing with them. I would assume that Riggs does as well, but he does not play that way. Have I gotten taged by him over and over in the hands while playing with him? Yup, but I taught him to do that (inadvertantly) so that is my own darn problem, not his.

A bitework dog letting go of someone because they make a noise is completely useless. Decoys are supposed to yell, to try to make the dog release the grip. If I send my dog, he had darn well better bite and hold on until I tell him to do otherwise... incidently that's exactly what he does. If I can't send my dog for some reason, I expect him to bite anyway.

Do dogs sometimes bite in error? Absolutely. Dogs make mistakes. They happen. It's aweful when they happen, but the reality of the dog world is that dogs have teeth and sometimes they do something that is completely unexpected and completely contrary to their training. Even dogs trained only for sport and only to bite equipment can one day misinterpret someone actions. Blaming a trainer, handler, the dog or even the training itself is short sighted. They aren't loose canons, dangerous or anything else.

There is a HUGE difference between a bite and an attack. Bites can be accidental, and what the dog does after that bite says a lot about that dog. An attack is completely different, it's meant to do harm, it includes repeated bites or a complete refusal to let go.

With only two exceptions, EVERY event I have been to in the past three years (I figured it out, it's around 10) has had a bite, an attempted bite, a dog fight or an attempted dog fight at it. At AKC or UKC shows it is QUICKLY covered up, as any aggression can get you kicked out of the show or even out of the UKC or AKC completely. That does not mean it doesn't happen. I watched two Aussies go after each other at the agility trial that both of us were at last spring. The handlers happened to have leashes that were too short, and neither of them were paying close attention. It didn't go any farther than noise, but that doesn't mean it didn't happen.
Last edited by mnp13 on March 8th, 2007, 5:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby dogged » March 8th, 2007, 3:51 pm

On March 08 2007, 2:16 PM, Romanwild wrote:
On March 08 2007, mnp13 wrote:
So a dog with drive can have too much obedience and inhibition?


And again... bite inhibition is the last thing that a protection dog needs. Why exactly would you want a dog that is trained to protect to stop biting when the person he is biting reacts in a negative manner?

Bite inhibition is a dog not biting.


iinhibition, suppression
(psychology) the conscious exclusion of unacceptable thoughts or desires


IMO I don't like a dog that is constantly sizing up people and scenarios to decide whether or not he should bite them. I just feel a protection dog should bite only when they are commanded to. :|

This leads me to Katies post which I will reply to later tonight. As well as the others. :D Back to work for me!


I'm not going to comment too much on this, I will gladly hand that over to some of our more experienced members. :D

BUT...

ALL of our dogs are constantly sizing up people/things/creatures as possible threats. This is just dogdom. For example, no wild creature would survive without some level of suspicion towards unfamiliar things. Due to socialization and genetics, our dogs come to learn that "common" people/things are not threats. But making "threat" and "non-threat" judgement calls is something that is hard wired in the canine. It's called survival.
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Postby mnp13 » March 8th, 2007, 4:12 pm

From various posts around the forum:

Tank was REALLY mouthy when I got him. I sorta did the same thing I had to do with Gracie {if you can believe it she is barely three months and as dense and bratty! } The second they did it I yelled OUCH as loud as I could. Sorta the same idea as saying OUCH when a puppy bites you but I'm talkin' loud. I'm not sure what your neighbours would think though. It worked really well with both of them


He responds to the no but we were told to shake him to teach inhibition like the mother would do.


Since you're the dog momma now you have the to teach the biggest lesson of all: BITE INHIBITION!


Dogs that have been taken from their moms too young or that have been bounced around often do not have good bite inhibition, so I agree with "jlewin," also. This is a good time to teach her "soft mouth," or how to "go easy."


Dreyfus has a natural bite inhibition. When he was a pup he never broke my skin even with puppy teeth! I had to teach him tug because it put his teeth too close to my hand.


I think you get the idea.
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Postby Big_Ant » March 8th, 2007, 4:25 pm

I agree whole-heartedly with Michelle regarding the bite. If you tell the dog to bite, they should bite AND STAY ON THE BITE until told otherwise.

The "inhibition" as it is being referred to, is not something you want in Bitework.

IMO, the shame of getting your dog run off the field by a decoy or getting shook off the sleeve is one of the most painful feelings for a handler to go through.

Semi-Related -- Funny:
My wife has been joking with Rider since we got him and she blows in his face. For the first week she was doing it, he would jump back. I told her, "I swear to God if I get a decoy who decides to breathe hard on Rider and he pops off the sleeve I'm gonna pay someone to kick your a$$!"

- Anthony
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Postby mnp13 » March 8th, 2007, 4:26 pm

She'll be sorry when he decides to jump forward and bite her nose! lol
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Postby katiek0417 » March 8th, 2007, 5:35 pm

On March 08 2007, 2:21 PM, cheekymunkee wrote:
On March 08 2007, 1:16 PM, Romanwild wrote:
On March 08 2007, mnp13 wrote:
So a dog with drive can have too much obedience and inhibition?


And again... bite inhibition is the last thing that a protection dog needs. Why exactly would you want a dog that is trained to protect to stop biting when the person he is biting reacts in a negative manner?

Bite inhibition is a dog not biting.


iinhibition, suppression
(psychology) the conscious exclusion of unacceptable thoughts or desires


IMO I don't like a dog that is constantly sizing up people and scenarios to decide whether or not he should bite them. I just feel a protection dog should bite only when they are commanded to. :|

This leads me to Katies post which I will reply to later tonight. As well as the others. :D Back to work for me!


But, what if you are gagged or somehow disabled & not ABLE to give voice or an other commands? What if you are alseep & someone enters your home with the intent to do you harm? Now, as I have stated I know NOTHING about bite work other than what I have read & seen here but I do know there are times when the handler will not always be able to give commands IRL.


Debby, EXACTLY my point!!!! I want Jue (or one of the other dogs) to make that decision on their own. If I can't give the command (b/c I'm being gagged, or whatever), I want my dog to still bite.

IMO I don't like a dog that is constantly sizing up people and scenarios to decide whether or not he should bite them. I just feel a protection dog should bite only when they are commanded to.


Guess what, Charles? If Greg our I has one of our dogs out somewhere, they're not sizing people up. They're focus is where it should be: on us.

Bite work DOES NOT EQUAL instability. A perfect example is Asja (Greg's titled female). He has a picture of Asja, right after she did bitework, laying on the groung, WATCHING bitework, with his old boss's daughter loving on her. She doesn't look agitated in the least bit....I'll see if Greg has that pic on his computer....
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Postby katiek0417 » March 8th, 2007, 11:34 pm

On March 08 2007, 11:06 AM, SisMorphine wrote:That high flying bark and hold is awesome. I love it. Who's the APBT? Very handsome . . .


Sis, if you like that pic of the flying bark and hold, you'll love these (by the way, the decoy he is working with is about 5'11):

Image

Image

Quote:
IMO I don't like a dog that is constantly sizing up people and scenarios to decide whether or not he should bite them. I just feel a protection dog should bite only when they are commanded to.


Guess what, Charles? If Greg our I has one of our dogs out somewhere, they're not sizing people up. They're focus is where it should be: on us.

Bite work DOES NOT EQUAL instability. A perfect example is Asja (Greg's titled female). He has a picture of Asja, right after she did bitework, laying on the groung, WATCHING bitework, with his old boss's daughter loving on her. She doesn't look agitated in the least bit....I'll see if Greg has that pic on his computer....


Charles, this is the pic I had mentioned in the above post (Asja JUST got done doing bitework, and they were still watching it):

Image
"Rumor has it, compulsion is evil."

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Postby GregMK9 » March 9th, 2007, 12:10 am

Sis,
Sorry I didn't get back to you sooner. Had to go into work late. Anyway, the APBT is Rusty. He was my very first pp trained dog and the dog that got me hooked. He's a GREAT ambassador for the breed. Not only did he do bite work, but he was also my demo dog when I would do demos at a few local schools. I would do a scenario with where a bunch of kids would be on the stage petting and playing with him. Then my helper would come out with a hidden sleeve and grab one of the kids as if he were kidnapping them. Rusty would go bite The bad guy, the kid would "Get away", then Rusty would out and return to me.
The kids and parents a like loved it! Really showed the APBT in a positive light. He's retired now.

Here are some more pics. Rusty PSA 1 open 2ND place Nationals
http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3cc04b3127cce9b3b8eec415e00000016108Ibt2rJy1a4

PSA Nationals 2003

http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3cc04b3127cce9b3b8eee415c00000016108Ibt2rJy1a4

Rusty on top van biting

http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b5cc34b3127cce95b97bfbac2d00000016108Ibt2rJy1a4

And lastly, my favorite PSA Nationals O.C., Md. Rusty coming to help dad out!
http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3cc27b3127cce9b3b8e19f96100000015108Ibt2rJy1a4
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Postby babyreba » March 9th, 2007, 12:42 am

how come none of the decoys in those pics are looking sideways, away from jue? usually the decoys/helpers i've seen are engaging the dog and looking right at him.

nothing to do with the OP, but i was just curious.
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Postby brooksybrooks1 » March 9th, 2007, 1:06 am

i think that it's unfortunate that protection dog is often equated with aggressive dog. i know that in my brief experience i have seen absolutely nothing but positive results from protection training with tre. he's more confident, he's calmer, he's not naturally suspicious or defensive (he never really was though), and he's super tolerant because he has learned and had experience with what an actual threat is, and unless he thinks something is a blaring threat, he's not gonna go into protection mode at all.

i had some trouble with psa protection that people on this board really helped me feel a lot better about, and because of that tre and i have started psa practices.

also, while ideally you want to say that you want your dog to only bite or protect on command, i know that i was SUPER happy when tre, without command, went up to a guy that was trying to get me into his car and did a bark and hold, basically telling him to beat it. i think that if you purchase right and buy a dog with the right temperament and train right, it's extremely valuable to have a dog that has experience and is clear headed enough to make good decisions on his own should he need to. if a dog is a good/well trained dog, they aren't going to make the decision to bite or attack anybody who hasn't earned it.
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Postby brooksybrooks1 » March 9th, 2007, 1:09 am

those shots up there are awesome. tre always sits in his bark and holds, and i know that in many cases that's preferrable, however he can jump SO HIGH that i would love to see what his b&h would look like if he did that!
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Postby brooksybrooks1 » March 9th, 2007, 1:14 am

i just noticed that in the course of this thread i've graduated from "just whelped" to "snot nose bully pup"!...is that a good thing or not?! regardless, i guess i'm just excited i'm something new now!

hey, this is a stupid question, and maybe it's because i'm only active on this board and i don't do a lot of online stuff, BUT WHAT DOES IMO MEAN???!!! people use it all the time here, i never know what it stands for! :|
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Postby cheekymunkee » March 9th, 2007, 1:21 am

On March 08 2007, 11:14 PM, brooksybrooks1 wrote:i just noticed that in the course of this thread i've graduated from "just whelped" to "snot nose bully pup"!...is that a good thing or not?! regardless, i guess i'm just excited i'm something new now!

hey, this is a stupid question, and maybe it's because i'm only active on this board and i don't do a lot of online stuff, BUT WHAT DOES IMO MEAN???!!! people use it all the time here, i never know what it stands for! :|


The more posts ( in certain sections) you have, the higher your "rank" becomes. I never really got the rank thing on message boards myself, but that's just me. :wink:

IMO means in my opinion.
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Postby brooksybrooks1 » March 9th, 2007, 1:22 am

On March 09 2007, 12:06 AM, brooksybrooks1 wrote:i know that i was SUPER happy when tre, without command, went up to a guy that was trying to get me into his car and did a bark and hold, basically telling him to beat it. .



for all of you out there that want to be sassy, no...i don't mean he jumped up on the man and tore his arm off! :wink:
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Postby katiek0417 » March 9th, 2007, 8:56 am

On March 08 2007, 11:42 PM, babyreba wrote:how come none of the decoys in those pics are looking sideways, away from jue? usually the decoys/helpers i've seen are engaging the dog and looking right at him.

nothing to do with the OP, but i was just curious.


Unfortunately, Jue is an a$$. If you look right at him when he's jumping up at you (and by the way, he double clacks his teeth when he's up there), it draws him in to bite...so, we always have decoys look away from him...it keeps him clean....
"Rumor has it, compulsion is evil."

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Nisha CGC, PDC, PSA TC, PSA 1 - Crazy Malinois
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Postby SisMorphine » March 9th, 2007, 9:53 am

On March 08 2007, 11:10 PM, GregMK9 wrote:Sis,
Sorry I didn't get back to you sooner. Had to go into work late. Anyway, the APBT is Rusty. He was my very first pp trained dog and the dog that got me hooked. He's a GREAT ambassador for the breed. Not only did he do bite work, but he was also my demo dog when I would do demos at a few local schools. I would do a scenario with where a bunch of kids would be on the stage petting and playing with him. Then my helper would come out with a hidden sleeve and grab one of the kids as if he were kidnapping them. Rusty would go bite The bad guy, the kid would "Get away", then Rusty would out and return to me.
The kids and parents a like loved it! Really showed the APBT in a positive light. He's retired now.

Here are some more pics. Rusty PSA 1 open 2ND place Nationals
http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3cc04b3127cce9b3b8eec415e00000016108Ibt2rJy1a4

PSA Nationals 2003

http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3cc04b3127cce9b3b8eee415c00000016108Ibt2rJy1a4

Rusty on top van biting

http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b5cc34b3127cce95b97bfbac2d00000016108Ibt2rJy1a4

And lastly, my favorite PSA Nationals O.C., Md. Rusty coming to help dad out!
http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3cc27b3127cce9b3b8e19f96100000015108Ibt2rJy1a4

That is very cool. What a fantastic dog. What made you move away from the APBT and into those needle nose dogs (*pssst* I'm a fan of the long noses myself ;) )?

Oh and Katrina, those pics are great!!! I just love the high flyers. lol
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