as promised, brittany hill round 2

Weight pull, Protection, Agility, Flyball... you name it!

Postby brooksybrooks1 » March 7th, 2007, 3:25 pm

maybe it would help if you went back and read the other thread, as this is obviously a continuation of it. i think it's labeled "brag"

and not to rant, but you have no idea what it takes to train my dog and how advanced/not advanced he is. maybe for another dog asking them to do a more challening bite like this would be too much, but for tre, it really helped him. maybe it was because he had to stop himself and think before he did or did not make the decision to go in for a cheap bite, but after only a few of doing these, he's done perfect bark and holds ever since. we think the physical barrier was a psychological one as well, and it really made him understand the command i was giving him after he got praise and the opportunity to take a bite after doing it right.
it's not as black and white as you seem to think it is. you have to tailor your training to the dog. for tre, this exercise was extremely helpful.
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Postby mnp13 » March 7th, 2007, 3:34 pm

On March 07 2007, 14:25, brooksybrooks1 wrote:maybe it would help if you went back and read the other thread, as this is obviously a continuation of it. i think it's labeled "brag"

No, it was not obvious. You may have thought it was, but it sure wasn't to me, especially since the very first line was that he is working on his "bark and hold" and there was nothing in the relating in any way (that I could see) to a bark and hold.

and not to rant, but you have no idea what it takes to train my dog and how advanced/not advanced he is.

We can only go by your words and your pictures. From my perspective and my experience, he is not an avanced dog. A dog that does not out 100% of the time (among other things) is certianly not advanced in my eyes.

in my opinion the dog needs more foundation work, and that comes long before you should be doing comparatively advanced senarios. The restaurant stuff is fun I'm sure, I used to train in a warehouse and had a great time (as a decoy not a handler) but I was training with dogs that had solid outs and solid obedience.
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Postby brooksybrooks1 » March 7th, 2007, 3:37 pm

and as i'm sure most people know on this board, but for those who don't or who i have confused, tre is obedience trained. he minds me like a saint and is probably gonna get his bh pretty soon here, in addition to just being an awesome, even tempered, well behaved anyway dog. when i say obedience in this context i don't mean sit, stay, down, heel, etc, i mean PROTECTION OBEDIENCE, things he only learns in the context of protection, like b&h, out, watch, etc. tre already knows he has to do what i say and wants to do what i say, but he has to know what i'm saying and what those words mean before i can expect him to perform them perfectly.
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Postby DemoDick » March 7th, 2007, 6:50 pm

Bitework is very exciting for the handler and the dog. It's also dangerous. It's a dog biting someone. That's why I agree with Ant. Logic, to me, dictates having a dog that is obscenely obedient prior to introduction to bitework. It's a safety thing.


I know of no one who does bitework who trains this way. I've trained at quite a few clubs in multiple states and been to PP and sport trials. It is unheard of to put "obscene obedience" on a dog before bitework, as you will likely end up with anemic performance. And bitework is NOT a "dog biting someone", especially in the beginning. It is a dog biting equipment with numerous visual and auditory cues, which is very different.

Inhibition is something you want in a dog that does bitework. That way the "handler" can control the dog that much more.


Inhibition is the worst thing to teach a bitework dog, especially one that you may count on to protect you. Inhibition results in hesitation and conflict within the dog. What you're talking about is control, which is not the same thing, and should not be taught the same way.

As far as inhibiting drive....not sure about that. I guess it would depend on what someones interpretation of drive is.


There's no debate. Drive is the dog's desire to perform a given behavior. That's pretty much universally accepted.

Looking to the handler for reward is not the pinnacle of marker training. For instance bitework in it's self would be the reward. With marker training you reward the behavior you want to reinforce. If you want the dog to look at you that's what you reward. If you want him to stay focused on the decoy then that's what you reward.
-italics added

See, there's the problem. In bitework foundation, the handler is basically just a tie out. The skills are primarily taught and reinforced by the decoy, not the handler. That's the whole point, to create the strongest possible focus and drive to bite the decoy. Besides, biting is a self-rewarding behavior (for a bite trained dog it is the self-rewarding behavior), so marking it would be redundant anyway.
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Postby brooksybrooks1 » March 8th, 2007, 12:53 am

michelle: none of my comments were directed towards you, if you thought i was disagreeing with you or being short. i wasn't, it was directed at anthony.

i think that there's a certain degree of truth to the fact that it looks like an advanced situation and what not, but at the same time, this wasn't just my idea, this was the idea of people who know my dog almost as well as i do have have years and years and years of experience and have titled countless dogs in several arenas, and i trust implicitly. if i or they at all felt that we were putting tre in over his head or that this would be in any way to his detriment it would not have been done.

because of the experience of the people i train with and the results after this situation i don't think it's a coincidence that it helped his training. this is something that they designed specifically for him and the desired results were achieved. i think it's highly unlikely that they made some huge oversight and put him in a situation that was too advanced for him. i really value the fact that i train with experienced people who don't see training as a linear thing, but look at each dog and handler team individually and design their training around what will work best for them. i feel, and i always have felt, that this brings out the best in both of us.
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Postby brooksybrooks1 » March 8th, 2007, 12:57 am

and i have never claimed that tre is advanced by any means, in fact this whole thread and the one that preceeded it is about me being excited that he's starting to make small breakthroughs. i don't know how else to say that this bite was not an advanced bite for him.
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Postby Romanwild » March 8th, 2007, 1:02 am

I know of no one who does bitework who trains this way. I've trained at quite a few clubs in multiple states and been to PP and sport trials. It is unheard of to put "obscene obedience" on a dog before bitework, as you will likely end up with anemic performance.


I haven't trained in bitework but when I started trying to learn about it I never heard of anyone starting with bitework. I was told several times that that was the last thing to teach a dog. Obviously like everything else in the world of training there is more then one way that works and even more opinions.

And bitework is NOT a "dog biting someone", especially in the beginning. It is a dog biting equipment with numerous visual and auditory cues, which is very different.


Ultimately it is a dog biting someone. That's what you're teaching. I'm always hearing about real world scenarios and hidden sleeves, etc. It's the teaching of a dog to bite the bad guy!

Inhibition is the worst thing to teach a bitework dog, especially one that you may count on to protect you. Inhibition results in hesitation and conflict within the dog. What you're talking about is control, which is not the same thing, and should not be taught the same way.


Control is obedience! What else could it be? If you've trained your dog to bite on command then he won't bite till you tell him to. That's a good thing.

To use you car analogy; The more horsepower you have the better brakes should be.

There's no debate. Drive is the dog's desire to perform a given behavior. That's pretty much universally accepted.


So a dog with drive can have too much obedience and inhibition?

Besides, biting is a self-rewarding behavior (for a bite trained dog it is the self-rewarding behavior), so marking it would be redundant anyway.


Actually marking it wouldn't be redundant. It would be marking the behavior you want the dog to repeat. Allowing the dog to continue would be the reward.
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Postby mnp13 » March 8th, 2007, 10:17 am

So a dog with drive can have too much obedience and inhibition?


And again... bite inhibition is the last thing that a protection dog needs. Why exactly would you want a dog that is trained to protect to stop biting when the person he is biting reacts in a negative manner?

Bite inhibition is a dog not biting.
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Postby katiek0417 » March 8th, 2007, 10:54 am

On March 08 2007, 12:02 AM, Romanwild wrote:
I know of no one who does bitework who trains this way. I've trained at quite a few clubs in multiple states and been to PP and sport trials. It is unheard of to put "obscene obedience" on a dog before bitework, as you will likely end up with anemic performance.


I haven't trained in bitework but when I started trying to learn about it I never heard of anyone starting with bitework. I was told several times that that was the last thing to teach a dog. Obviously like everything else in the world of training there is more then one way that works and even more opinions.


I am currently raising my 2nd puppy (and we had a 3rd here before he was sold, and we currently have the 8.5 week old here). I start with bitework. My pups are on backtie at 7 weeks old. They are biting the ragpole at that age. They start getting introduced to environmental distractions. They work their way up to sleeves and suits (Nisha is currently 1.5 years old and has done full courage tests). Her obedience? Not bad. Did we start with it? Nope. In fact, she wasn't introduced to a prong collar until she was nearly 1. Did that mean that I didn't do stuff with her when she was younger? No, but I put no compulsion in it until she was a year.


Ultimately it is a dog biting someone. That's what you're teaching. I'm always hearing about real world scenarios and hidden sleeves, etc. It's the teaching of a dog to bite the bad guy!


This has been brought up before. But let me ask you something? Have you ever been attacked and raped in your own home? By someone you know? Imagine being a 100-lb girl and having that happen to you by a 185-lb guy. Guess what, it happened to me. I got a dog for that reason. I started doing PP for that reason. When Greg goes away, he often gives up training time with Jue (when he'd have 2 decoys, etc), so that he can leave him with me. Why? Because it makes me feel safe. When Greg is gone, Jue sleeps on the bed with me. In Greg's mind, all the time he misses working with his dog is the price he pays if it keeps me safe. And he wants that more than anything. Have you ever had someone you really cared about? What if something like this happened to them? Would you still be so against teaching a dog to bite people if it kept them safe?

And Brooksybrooks:
he minds me like a saint and is probably gonna get his bh pretty soon here,


I'm not trying to be mean here, but have you seen Sch trials? The BH isn't that difficult. As long as your dog shows some level of control, it'll pass. And I've spoken to judges about this. I also know dogs who have passed the BH, but not the PSA TC. I could probably put Nisha in a BH tomorrow,and have her pass (and I've never worked her off-leash before).

Quote:
Inhibition is the worst thing to teach a bitework dog, especially one that you may count on to protect you. Inhibition results in hesitation and conflict within the dog. What you're talking about is control, which is not the same thing, and should not be taught the same way

Control is obedience! What else could it be? If you've trained your dog to bite on command then he won't bite till you tell him to. That's a good thing.


A dog that is trained in PP will bite if you don't tell him to if the situation is right. If Greg comes from behind, and puts his arm around my neck, and I screech and laugh, Jue won't bite him and neither will any of the other dogs. If a stranger comes in our house and does the same, but now I scream in terror, well, God help the person. Jue will bite. I wouldn't have to give the command to get him to do so. PP dogs can make the distinction. However, that doesn't mean I can't take Jue, or Asja, or Dru, or Nisha out somewhere and have them be in a social situation (okay, Jue isn't social, per se, but he won't just bite someone if we're out). For example, I can take any one of those dogs out somewhere, and not have them bite. What you are teaching the dog is to read the situation. You're not training attack dogs.
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Postby GregMK9 » March 8th, 2007, 11:16 am

I am one of those guys that start my dogs bite foundation before my obedience, or even house manners for that reason. In fact, I don't put obedience on my personal dogs till around 1yr. old, and no corrections till I feel the dog is mentally mature enough to handle it.
I start my bite work foundation after the pup gets his second set of vaccinations. Starting with a rag or flirt pole, then tug, puppy sleeve, intermediate sleeve, hard sleeve, and eventually suit. All this is done on back tie to build foundation bite work and prey drive.The back tie is also where I introduce environmental stressors. I keep the dog there till at least 1yr old. Only when the dog is showing me what I want in terms of drive and grip do I introduce motivational obedience. At this time the dog is ALWAYS on leash and under control via restraint from the leash.
I try to never correct a young pup for biting me or anything else as I do not want to convince the pup it's a bad thing. There's plenty of time to teach right from wrong when the pup is older.
I've tried putting obedience on a dog first with my first pp dog. It didn't work for me. He just seemed to lack the drive and desire to bite I wanted. Could have just been the dog or my technique at the time.
I've also seen other people's dogs that lack the drive I like to see when obedience is done first, but again could just be there foundation or what not.
Obviously at least situation is different and I don't advise everyone to wait a year till they do obedience. I think it all depends on your situation and dog. I will not do formal obedience with a pp candidate till the pups at least 6mos old. But that's just me.
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Postby GregMK9 » March 8th, 2007, 11:45 am

Here are some pics of a bark and hold

Image
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Postby GregMK9 » March 8th, 2007, 11:53 am

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Postby SisMorphine » March 8th, 2007, 12:06 pm

That high flying bark and hold is awesome. I love it. Who's the APBT? Very handsome . . .
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Postby Big_Ant » March 8th, 2007, 12:14 pm



Thank You Greg. We finally get to see a Bark & Hold in a "Bark & Hold" thread.

That was my whole point. This thread is titled as a Bark & Hold, yet there were no Bark & Holds being displayed in the pictures by the OP.

I understand not going full on with obedience and laying the foundation through bitework. Heck, Rider is joining the "puppy circle" next Saturday where we'll begin working on his drive and establishing all of his foundation work.

My main issue from jump with this was "false advertising", if you can call it that. As I said before, my concern was that someone who didn't know what a Bark & Hold really is, might come here, see this thread, and jump out there wrecking dogs or causing setbacks in their own training.

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Postby brooksybrooks1 » March 8th, 2007, 1:39 pm

here's to answer questions and comments from multiple people:
yes, i have seen sch trials, and when i said tre could get his bh soon i didn't mean that he would just pass, i mean competitive, focused off leash healing. i realize that you, for the most part, never get to find out what your bh score is, but what i meant by it was that he could get his bh now because his obedience is almost at sch1 standards, barring retrieves, and i believe he would score very well.

anthony: if you have never trained bite work then why do you pose your whole response as though you are an authority on it? you have to have input from several different types of training, watched it, read about it, etc before you can talk like this. maybe your comments would have resulted in less of an uproar if you would have kept in mind that these should be questions, i feel like greg and demodick and others have done a pretty good job of explaining things to you, people who have a lot of authority, and yet you still act like with your zero experience your opinion weighs just as heavily if not more than theirs.

i apologize if there was confusion about whether or not these pictures were of the bark and hold or of the bites thereafter, i guess i assumed that people who saw it had read the previous thread and thats why they looked at these pictures. i believe i explained it more in that thread, and then these pictures were just of the booth work i had spoken of.

i guess i'm a little annoyed that i put up these pictures for people to enjoy, mislabeled as they may be, and instead of that happenning or anthony just asking a polite question, i get put on the defensive. i'm even more annoyed that i'm getting attacked by someone who has little to no experience in it and is in no position to be telling people who have experience how to do it. i am absolutely no authority on it either, and i ask questions all the time, but i don't go into somebody elses thread and tr to tell them everything they are doing wrong and attack them. i don't feel like i have thin skin at all, but i do feel like the attitude could be left out of it and none of this would have happened.
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Postby cheekymunkee » March 8th, 2007, 1:43 pm

Well, I enjoyed your pics! I just don't want your dog to be my waitress! :wink:
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Postby Nelson » March 8th, 2007, 1:49 pm

Training, no matter how subtle, will produce stress in a dog. Stress is a build-up in pressure that must be countered to have a balanced dog. Just as a pressure cooker has its' valve to relief the pressure, the same applies to dog training.

This is the main reason the "no obedience before bitework" philosophy popped-up and was developed. This had its foundation in Europe long before it was practiced here in the US. It has been proven that inappropriate training (obedience or others) before the development of proper bitework will trample the dog's drive.

Does this mean that you must go strictly: "pure positive", bitework first, no obedience, etc???? Of course not. All trainers have their strengths and weaknesses, talent, experience and knowledge. This will eventually determine what type of training they'll choose.

There's a major difference in the training of a competition dog, high level competition dog, club dog and personal dog. Depending on the type of dog/owner goals .... that's the amount of leniency or severity the training will have depending on the talent of both trainer and handler. For after all is said and done there is one undeniable factual aspect that will prevail. Trials are your training evaluation sheet. Depending on how your dog PERFORMS will determine in what shape your training is at.
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Postby brooksybrooks1 » March 8th, 2007, 1:51 pm

sorry, confusion! the last comment directed towards anthony was actually for romanwild

i do appreciate the support from michelle and everyone else, i'm glad that people are concerned with what's best for my dog, however i do not appreciate being attacked prematurely for things. i'm also glad that there are people on this board to offer their advice and opinions and inform someone who has limited knowledge about this.

to be honest, i'm pretty shocked that this has gone this far. all i did was put these up for people to look at because people on this board like to look at pictures of sports! if there is confusion, i'm more than happy to answer and ask questions, but i don't feel like this should be a hostile environment where i get attacked for making a small oversight in labeling and then my training ethics not only questioned but attacked. it's discouraging at best.
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Postby Big_Ant » March 8th, 2007, 1:53 pm

On 03/08/2007 9:39 AM, brooksybrooks1 wrote:anthony: if you have never trained bite work then why do you pose your whole response as though you are an authority on it? you have to have input from several different types of training, watched it, read about it, etc before you can talk like this. maybe your comments would have resulted in less of an uproar if you would have kept in mind that these should be questions, i feel like greg and demodick and others have done a pretty good job of explaining things to you, people who have a lot of authority, and yet you still act like with your zero experience your opinion weighs just as heavily if not more than theirs.

Now where in the world did you get the idea that I have not trained bite work before??? You are getting me confused with some of the things that Charles said.

i'm even more annoyed that i'm getting attacked by someone who has little to no experience in it and is in no position to be telling people who have experience how to do it.

Still lost on where you are getting this. I'm definitely not on Greg's level, but I'm definitely not inexperienced.

**** Please accept a retractment of the above statements if they weren't intended for me. I'm a little confused myself, so I'll just drop that.

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Postby Big_Ant » March 8th, 2007, 1:57 pm

On 03/08/2007 9:49 AM, Nelson wrote:Does this mean that you must go strictly: "pure positive", bitework first, no obedience, etc???? Of course not. All trainers have their strengths and weaknesses, talent, experience and knowledge. This will eventually determine what type of training they'll choose.

I just wanted to add that it does depend on the dog as well.

Weda was trained Obedience first, when she finally got on the field she did well. She wasn't doing the common look backs for reassurance from me, she was more than willing to work. However, she has a very high prey drive so it was a pretty easy transition for her.

There are some dogs who can make the transition from Obedience first to Bitework, but I agree that building the bitework foundation first is generally the safer route to ensure that progress is made properly.

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