as promised, brittany hill round 2

Weight pull, Protection, Agility, Flyball... you name it!

Postby brooksybrooks1 » March 6th, 2007, 12:31 am

here's tre learning bark and holds in a booth. ever since this practice he has done a perfect bark and hold almost every time on flat ground. very exciting!

sorry for the big size

Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
User avatar
brooksybrooks1
Loyally Bully
 
Posts: 631
Location: Colorado

Postby luvmypitties » March 6th, 2007, 12:36 am

Looks like fun!!! And like he did a great job!!!
Tina
Our thoughts and prayers are with Mick and Christine! We love you both!

RIP my precious Noah! You are greatly missed and still so loved!!! 7-12-06-- 2-21-07
RIP Abby! I always loved you!
User avatar
luvmypitties
I live here
 
Posts: 4549
Location: Fredericksburg VA

Postby Romanwild » March 6th, 2007, 8:40 am

He must come in handy getting a table when you go out to dinner. lol
User avatar
Romanwild
I live here
 
Posts: 2931
Location: Watertown NY

Postby iluvk9 » March 6th, 2007, 8:41 am

On March 06 2007, Romanwild wrote:He must come in handy getting a table when you go out to dinner. lol


LMAO
iluvk9
I'm Cougarific!
 
Posts: 14900
Location: New York

Postby mnp13 » March 6th, 2007, 12:33 pm

looks good.

why are you working him on his prong?
Michelle

Inside me is a thin woman trying to get out. I usually shut the bitch up with a martini.
User avatar
mnp13
Evil Overlord
 
Posts: 17234
Location: Rochester, NY

Postby Marinepits » March 6th, 2007, 1:01 pm

GREAT pics! Thanks for sharing them!
Never make someone a priority in your life when that someone treats you like an option.
User avatar
Marinepits
Proud Infidel
 
Posts: 15621
Location: New England

Postby brooksybrooks1 » March 6th, 2007, 2:59 pm

i'm working him on his prong because it has rubber tips on it and it's hooked to both rings, so when he pulls on it or i pull on it it's not constricting around his neck, it's just pulling him back. i use it not because i'm giving him a lot of corrections or because he's out of control, but because when i want him to out or stop barking or lay down he doesn't, at this point, really get the message without it. he is getting a lot better though. i can work him without it, it's just a learning tool. and i trust its sturdyness more than his leather flat collar.
User avatar
brooksybrooks1
Loyally Bully
 
Posts: 631
Location: Colorado

Postby brooksybrooks1 » March 6th, 2007, 3:01 pm

and yes, nobody gets a table before me!
User avatar
brooksybrooks1
Loyally Bully
 
Posts: 631
Location: Colorado

Postby Big_Ant » March 6th, 2007, 6:31 pm

OK, I hate to be an a$$, but since no one else will be . . .

WHERE DO YOU SEE A BARK AND HOLD IN THOSE PICTURES??? Do you understand what a bark and hold is? Maybe your camera was slow and you only caught the bark, and he decided to skip the Hold???????

On 03/06/2007 10:59 AM, brooksybrooks1 wrote:i use it not because i'm giving him a lot of corrections or because he's out of control, but because when i want him to out or stop barking or lay down he doesn't, at this point, really get the message without it.

Then he shouldn't be taking bites yet, and definitely not bites in adverse situations like a table/booth. People are so damn quick to get to the bitework these days they'll pass on some of the more basic of necessities won't they.

- Anthony
User avatar
Big_Ant
Enlightened Bully
 
Posts: 1743

Postby blover27 » March 6th, 2007, 6:41 pm

On March 06 2007, 5:31 PM, Big_Ant wrote:OK, I hate to be an a$$, but since no one else will be . . .
i dont think you really hate it that much buddy 8)
''I'm neutral, BUT -- Not Afraid of any of them.''

http://www.pitsandpets.com
User avatar
blover27
Snot Nose Bully Pup
 
Posts: 117
Location: TX

Postby cheekymunkee » March 6th, 2007, 6:47 pm

On March 06 2007, 4:31 PM, Big_Ant wrote:OK, I hate to be an a$$, but since no one else will be . . .

WHERE DO YOU SEE A BARK AND HOLD IN THOSE PICTURES??? Do you understand what a bark and hold is? Maybe your camera was slow and you only caught the bark, and he decided to skip the Hold???????

On 03/06/2007 10:59 AM, brooksybrooks1 wrote:i use it not because i'm giving him a lot of corrections or because he's out of control, but because when i want him to out or stop barking or lay down he doesn't, at this point, really get the message without it.

Then he shouldn't be taking bites yet, and definitely not bites in adverse situations like a table/booth. People are so damn quick to get to the bitework these days they'll pass on some of the more basic of necessities won't they.

- Anthony


Uh, there is more than one person whose dogs take bites but are not so hot on the "out". It's a learning process, she's learning, as is her dog. If you have questions for her, ask them. She has shown she is more than willing to answer questions & learn & share what she HAS learned, no need to be rude to her. Thank you.
There's a fine line between genius and insanity. I have erased this line.

Debby
User avatar
cheekymunkee
I Have Your Grass
 
Posts: 28540
Location: Dallas

Postby Big_Ant » March 6th, 2007, 6:55 pm

On 03/06/2007 2:47 PM, cheekymunkee wrote:Uh, there is more than one person whose dogs take bites but are not so hot on the "out".

Absolutely. Quite a few here.

It's a learning process, she's learning, as is her dog.

Exactly, it's a learning process. My problem with the 'learning' is that those bites are, IMO, for a dog that is much more advanced, and has their Obedience down first. But then again, I guess this goes back to the whole, 'to each their own', that you guys keep spouting about.

If you have questions for her, ask them.

I did ask a question. I asked where the 'Bark and Hold' was. If it was just an improper labeling, then I have no issue with that, but IMO for this to be labeled as a Bark and Hold is incorrect. You might end up with someone new to Sch, Ring, Bitework, and see these pictures and get the wrong idea of what they should be aiming for. All I was looking for was clarification.

no need to be rude to her.

Not my intention, however, it does seem that most people around here these days have skin about at thick as a wet napkin. Whenever there is any adversity or 'push-back' they get defensive or run and whine. (not speaking about you)

- Anthony
User avatar
Big_Ant
Enlightened Bully
 
Posts: 1743

Postby cheekymunkee » March 6th, 2007, 6:59 pm

I understand BUT not everyone does have a thick skin, not every one knows you Ant or knows how to take you. I'm just pretty damned tired of people getting reamed out & leaving the board over their opinions. We work damn hard to make this a nice place where EVERY one is welcome & having people run off over being attacked needs to stop. Now. Say it nicely or don't say it at all. :wink:
There's a fine line between genius and insanity. I have erased this line.

Debby
User avatar
cheekymunkee
I Have Your Grass
 
Posts: 28540
Location: Dallas

Postby Big_Ant » March 6th, 2007, 7:12 pm

:tomato:

:neutral:

:sad3:
User avatar
Big_Ant
Enlightened Bully
 
Posts: 1743

Postby DemoDick » March 6th, 2007, 7:18 pm

Exactly, it's a learning process. My problem with the 'learning' is that those bites are, IMO, for a dog that is much more advanced, and has their Obedience down first. But then again, I guess this goes back to the whole, 'to each their own', that you guys keep spouting about.


I don't do obedience first, and don't advocate it for a bitework dog. Large amounts of obedience work in a young dog can squash drive early and create an inhibited animal. I like to teach the mechanics of bitework in prey and add pressure as the dog matures and can handle it. Yeah, the dog acts like an a$$ for a few months but he learns to give everything he can in the bitework. If the obedience is done correctly later, you will end up with good control. I would still teach the dog manners when he's not working, however.

This can also happen with a dog that is primarily marker trained (actually it can get much worse in such a dog). Instead of squashing drive with corrections you create a dog whose first instinct is to look to the handler for a reward, instead of to the decoy. Hyper focus on the handler gets lots of points in OB but can be a real hindrance in bitework.

To use the old car analogy, everyone that I've trained with who produces high level dogs puts the engine in the car first, then adds the brakes and steering when HP is peaked. It's civil work and muzzle fighting that I would postpone until after obedience is in place.

Demo Dick
User avatar
DemoDick
They Like to Fondle My Gun
 
Posts: 1910
Location: New York

Postby Big_Ant » March 6th, 2007, 7:48 pm

On 03/06/2007 3:18 PM, DemoDick wrote:
Exactly, it's a learning process. My problem with the 'learning' is that those bites are, IMO, for a dog that is much more advanced, and has their Obedience down first. But then again, I guess this goes back to the whole, 'to each their own', that you guys keep spouting about.


I don't do obedience first, and don't advocate it for a bitework dog. Large amounts of obedience work in a young dog can squash drive early and create an inhibited animal. I like to teach the mechanics of bitework in prey and add pressure as the dog matures and can handle it. Yeah, the dog acts like an a$$ for a few months but he learns to give everything he can in the bitework. If the obedience is done correctly later, you will end up with good control. I would still teach the dog manners when he's not working, however.

I completely agree. I'm not saying that the dog has to be titled in Obedience, and as your good friend Chris says, "Bitework is Obedience". IMO, There are levels of Bitework Obedience that one must work up to during their training. A dog taking a bite in a booth/tight area is not a low level. I understand working on drive solely with a little obedience for manners, and as I said before, my main concern/issue with this post was the titling of this as being a B&H, which it is not, the 'training' of the dog was just a side note that I think was taking a little harsher than I had expected it to come across.

- Anthony
User avatar
Big_Ant
Enlightened Bully
 
Posts: 1743

Postby Romanwild » March 6th, 2007, 11:52 pm

People are so damn quick to get to the bitework these days they'll pass on some of the more basic of necessities won't they.


I agree. I don't do bite work but I do have my opinions and observations.

Bitework is very exciting for the handler and the dog. It's also dangerous. It's a dog biting someone. That's why I agree with Ant. Logic, to me, dictates having a dog that is obscenely obedient prior to introduction to bitework. It's a safety thing.

Demo wrote:
Large amounts of obedience work in a young dog can squash drive early and create an inhibited animal


Inhibition is something you want in a dog that does bitework. That way the "handler" can control the dog that much more. As far as inhibiting drive....not sure about that. I guess it would depend on what someones interpretation of drive is.

Demo wrote:
This can also happen with a dog that is primarily marker trained (actually it can get much worse in such a dog). Instead of squashing drive with corrections you create a dog whose first instinct is to look to the handler for a reward, instead of to the decoy.


Looking to the handler for reward is not the pinnacle of marker training. For instance bitework in it's self would be the reward. With marker training you reward the behavior you want to reinforce. If you want the dog to look at you that's what you reward. If you want him to stay focused on the decoy then that's what you reward.
User avatar
Romanwild
I live here
 
Posts: 2931
Location: Watertown NY

Postby mnp13 » March 7th, 2007, 12:45 am

Inhibition is something you want in a dog that does bitework. That way the "handler" can control the dog that much more. As far as inhibiting drive....not sure about that. I guess it would depend on what someones interpretation of drive is.


No, inhibition is not what you want in bitework (at least I have never heard that). Obedience, yes. Inhibition? No. Inhibition is what Ruby does - in four years of her "attacking" me (her version of play) she has given me nasty, nasty bruises but never broken the skin beyond minor scratches that take a while to even ooze a little blood and scab over. She could remove an arm if she wanted to, she doesn't (though she will remove chunks of my sneakers.) When a protection or sport dog bites, you want that dog to clamp down and not let go. There is a reason the decoy fights and yells in "pain" it makes the dog take a firmer hold and counter in deeper. Sometimes the dog gets through the suit because of that - and I've had that happen more than once.

I hope Greg will weigh in on this one, as he has the most titled PSA dogs in the country and is quite experienced. Hopefully Nelson will drop by as well, as he is an international competitor in Ring.

There are MANY theories on what makes the best "sport", PP and/or working dog. However, I think you will hear more high level people saying that bitework comes before heavy, strict obecience. Responsible management comes with dogs that do bitework. Do accidents happen even with the most responsible owner? Of course, that is why they are accidents no one is perfect, no dog is perfect.

My personal opinion? Obedience comes first, but I've never started a dog from a puppy, or started one from day one (I was an observer with Connor, not a handler)

Bitework is very exciting for the handler and the dog. It's also dangerous. It's a dog biting someone. That's why I agree with Ant. Logic, to me, dictates having a dog that is obscenely obedient prior to introduction to bitework. It's a safety thing.

Bitework may be fun, but personally, I don't do it for the "excitement" factor. I do it because it is functional, and I desire a functional PP dog, not a "sport" dog. Obedience isn't "fun" either, but that is also functional. Agility? That's a riot, it's functional as well, but my dogs are in it because they love it.

I do decoy for the fun factor, it sure doesn't have anything to do with self perservation! lol

If you want him to stay focused on the decoy then that's what you reward.

I think he is talking about where the reward comes from. You can reward focus on the decoy, but when you "click" to indicate the correct behavior, the dog looks to you for the reward. That reward may be the bite, but you don't want the dog to break the focus on the decoy to check in with you to see where the reward is going to come from.
Last edited by mnp13 on March 7th, 2007, 3:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Michelle

Inside me is a thin woman trying to get out. I usually shut the bitch up with a martini.
User avatar
mnp13
Evil Overlord
 
Posts: 17234
Location: Rochester, NY

Postby dogged » March 7th, 2007, 8:37 am

Like Michelle said, every club/person has a different way of doing things and a different reason for them. For myself and my club, we do foundation bitework without hardly any obedience for quite some time. Doesn't mean the dog isn't trained in OB, it means we don't begin to control the drive until the dog has a solid background in prey bitework.

That doesn't mean the dogs don't know obedience. I started my Boxer at 7 weeks in obedience. And, yes, he is marker trained for obedience but I have yet to see it effect bitework. That's just my experience with this particular dog. I don't mark bites, though. I highly doubt if I DID mark his bite, he would take a millisecond to look at me if he was already engaged with the decoy. Personally, I wouldn't be happy with a dog who disengages with a decoy (weather before the bite or during) to come to me for a reward. IMO, a dog like that needs to build more drive if it's going to blow off the decoy for a mere liver snap.
User avatar
dogged
Hyper Adolescent Bully
 
Posts: 275
Location: GA

Postby brooksybrooks1 » March 7th, 2007, 3:18 pm

i will say this though-tell me how you teach a dog who has never had a bite before how to out during a bite?! sure, you can teach him on a spring pole, or a tug, or a ball, or whatever, but when a dog is in protection drive it is very different.


Good point. That is the reason that obedience needs to be done in different locations and different circumstances. Dogs do not generalize. If it outs off of a flirt pole, it won't necessarily out off of a spring pole or a ball or a tug or a sleeve or a suit. That's the nature of the beast. If they did generalize they would be MUCH easier to train.
User avatar
brooksybrooks1
Loyally Bully
 
Posts: 631
Location: Colorado

Next

Return to Sports

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Yahoo [Bot]

cron